S3 E45 - The One Where Men Unlearn Misogyny

0:00 You're listening to Quincast, where we have chats about audio erotica and empowerment through desire. And we take you behind the scenes with the pros shaping the industry settle in. Things are about to get spicy and uncensored. As always, big love to our sponsor Betty of what Bettymade dot com. She makes amazing stickers and yes there's a whole quin cast collection made just for you. Cute, chaotic and dangerously easy to justify buying. Check her out at what Bettymade dot Com and don't forget to listen out in today's episode for the newest installments of Peaching It Real. Hello, pretty ladies, all, look at you looking all beautiful. Smile at me. Why are you smiling?

1:07 Why smile? Why do I have to smile? Because she looks so pretty? And women always should smile when you get compliments. Oh that's great. No it isn't, No, it isn't. Hello ladies. He it was good. That was very good. I got a little nervous for a second. Did I sound madly enough? Yes, the misogyny was oozing from you. And why did I come on like a misogynistic asshole? Okay, so we've all been there, the comment that makes you uncomfortable but you laughed off anyway, the dynamic at work that felt off but you couldn't quite name, the relationship pattern that you kept wondering, is it me, It's not you.

1:49 And today we're going to talk about why we brought in Luks, an anti misogyny educator and psychotherapist who went on his own personal journey of recognizing and dismantling his own misogynistic who educates men online to unpack their misogyny and challenging stereotypes. He loves I'll think sports, energetic and socializing. Amazing. Great buyer. Cannot wait to talk to him. I have been following him on TikTok for quite some time now, and he's got his own podcast called xorts that's just coming where he is just in his first season and his tiktoks are. He will put up a screen behind him and on there will be some prompts for a discussion, for some learning opportunities, and they will be like body counts and friend zones and not all men and et cetera, et cetera, And he invites men up to discuss it and to say what their views are and see if he can sort of expand the minds, and they're just fascinating. I mean, sometimes it's absolute carnage where men will just be defensive cunts, and then other times that it will be like a miracle.

3:00 They'll be like this moment where a man will just go, you're right sorry, you know, yes, it's like that's brave of him, that's. So like, wow, good for him. Doesn't he start each video with a specific catchphrase he does. It's a very British catchphrase and it is oh dear, where did we begin with this one? So let's welcome Lex into the Quincas studio. It's nice to meet you, like some yes, hello, all right. So for anyone who hasn't come across your work before, can you tell us who you are and what you do?

3:43 Yeah, So I'm Lex. I'm a qualified psychotherapist. That's my job outside of the online work that I do. But online I do anti misogyny videos and lives where men can hopefully unpack that. So I tried to make them educational. A lot of men, you view it as more of a debate because the prompts do say at the bottom, if you disagree, then come up and have a conversation, and the minute the word disagree is there, they think, well, it's a debate, and I try to emphasize misogyny is not a debate, but a lot of the things are rooted in misogynistic beliefs, and that's why those opinions can be quite I suppose, varying as to how men have come to their conclusions on certain topics, and so for me, it's about getting to the root of understanding how you've come to those conclusions when the majority of the time it's just something you've heard and gone along with as part of conditioning to just say, yeah, this must be it.

4:30 And then the videos is just kind of similar in terms of finding a lot of red pill content and just highlighting the contradictions, the hypocrisy and misogyny alongside that kind of a message that I would say appeals to a large majority audience of men, especially young men. So that's pretty much me in a nutshell in regards to what I do online. So that's where you are now, lex, So how did you get here? So I talk about this quite a bit. Actually, years ago, I had a close friend who is still a good friend of mine, now who challenged me on a misogynistic viewpoint that I had by also labeling at what it was and me having this reaction of what's what's misogyny? Don't even know what you're talking about. And that was just the opening of the door really in terms of how much I didn't know and how deep it was in terms of the viewpoints that I held onto. And then it was more flooded with me then just you know, asking continuous questions, trying to understand more. I originally wanted to go on to TikTok to do relationship content because I was studying to be relationship counselor as well, and that was kind of what I wanted to go down as a route. But then on my fore page I was getting a lot of this red pill, you know, videos where I was like, oh, I find myself finding some of the things they're saying really horrific. But then I agree with a couple of points they've said, So what's that all about? It's a bit you know, conflicting, And she basically got the brunt of all those videos for me to then say, what's.

5:43 Going on here? I don't understand blah blah blah, and then through just going into a lot of women's spaces online and listening to their experiences, listening to, you know, the reasons why against some of the viewpoints that men had were you know, rooted in that misogynistic mindset. I then thought that, you know, would be quite powerful to be able to do that as a man, once I'd learned enough to begin being a man trying to educate men, because I believe it's a men's issue, it's something that men need to unpack amongst men, and that women shouldn't really be having the emotional labor of kind of educating men to. Not harm them. But in itself just sounds ridiculous to say out loud. So and she kind of said to me, you know, we live in a world where men respect men more than they do women, men listen to men more than they do women, and so arguably it could be more powerful.

6:27 Not that it's a good thing, but just more coming from a man. So this idea of more male allies, I suppose, and I just I thought I'd give it a go, and I started doing mental health lives in the morning, built up a community. Then I started to drift into the anti misogyny lives and it was kind of around the time where there was the man or bear hypothetical. Yes, that's when I started, and you know, I did a live on that topic and for some reason, the live had about eight hundred people in there. I had no moderators, and it was an absolute mess. Oh my god, it was. It was absolutely mess. And some people were like, do you need a moderator, and I was like, what's a moderator? Yeah? So and then slowly, you know, a community forms and you know, you meet some incredible people, and that was just kind of something for me. That also a place of belonging online was quite nice as well, because I've moved home and you know, you're a bit more away from friends that you meet up with, and it was quite nice then to be able to have this whole you know what turned into friendships for a lot, but also just a community of sharing information, sharing resources, statistics websites.

7:34 It did feel great to be able to just see how much was going on, to be able to then educate with if that makes sense, not not how great the amount of misogyny there is probably also the best wording. I meant it more in the sense of you know, being able to be part of a community that could actually give you that much more information to work with to try and then you know, become someone who is an online presence in that way. So that that's pretty much the journey I suppose to where I am now, Wow. Kind of intimated to having a couple of misogynistic views yourself. Are you open to telling us what those were? Yeah? So I was very much of the belief that what a woman wore was for the attention of men at times. So for me, there was that element of thinking like if a woman goes out clubbing or something, that the type of dress or outfits she might wear was to maybe get attention from men, and obviously that leads into the victim blaming mentality.

8:26 Yeah, and she. Gave me this analogy which has stuck with me till today, where she sort of said, you know, if someone was walking down the street and you know, someone took a knife out and used it on their neck, you wouldn't say to them, we should have been wearing a scarf. And for me, that just kind of dropped that penny moment where I was like, oh, wow, that was quite and it was a bit embarrassing for myself to think, how did I not know this? But that's just how easy it was to just go along with this idea that, yeah, that's what women do, right, they wear clothes for men, you know, that's what they're looking to have a good time maybe, and then the deep rooted of all other things as well. So that was the kind of thing that was it for me. And then it was more the things of just understanding that, like when I'm driving, not necessarily now, even though I do catch myself with the odd time, you know, the mind it was like if something ever happened on the road, it was like, oh, it's a woman driver, you know. It was like always the typical things of like you just say it, don't you, because that's what you expect, even though statistically it would prove that men have more accidents and take more risks.

9:21 So yeah, there's lots of individual things that would lead to that kind of mindset of thinking it's okay to just go along with that and say that because it's operating in my male privilege. So yeah, it was quite quite an opening. Let's say to then go on that journey and explore more so that that's where it started. Wow, it's a powerful start. It is a powerful start. Do you when you catch your brain doing those things like you just said, like when you're driving, like what is your immediate thought like right after? Well, I don't actually do it anymore because because when I see something happen, I'm just like, oh, I'm more focusing on my feelings of the situation rather than the deflection of like blame, even if it's like oh, I'd rather just say it was a man, but just more about like, oh, I'm feeling a bit frustrated by that. Whatever, it will go away, so I'm not now looking for that.

10:09 So there was an element of like, am I trying to project onto it being a woman? Am I trying to blame? Which I think that does come a lot with when we talk about men and accountability and you know, owning up to certain beliefs or behaviors and recognizing the harm and how much that can minimize the victims or survivors of whatever it is that they face, regardless of what level of misogyny it is. So yeah, it's definitely something that like I don't find myself doing anymore, but mainly because I couldn't believe that I used to, If that makes sense. It's always like, wow, I actually should think that way, that's ridiculous. But it was quite heavily ingrained. Yeah. Yeah. Do you recall the like the kind of journeys. I mean, like you imagine it's so so ingrained and so habitual that how you were able to shift it. I mean there had been a transition prayer like maybe three times out of ten you blamed the woman driver, then one time out of ten, like, how did you make that transition?

11:00 I think it's a difficult one with the driving because I don't often come into situations where, like enough where someone's done something wrong on the road. Yeah you know. I mean, like it's not like I don't drive a lot. I do, but I don't find often every journey there's someone doing something. I'm like, ough, you know, when I hear a lot of the things that men say, I think, like there's parts of me where I think to myself, do you know what, Like I know why you're thinking that way because I was there once. I'm not saying it's acceptable. I'm just saying I know why you're thinking that, and I'm trying to almost like get underneath that layer to sort of say, let some unpack this together. Dare I say, almost like holding hands, you know, without without trying to coddle men, because I don't think that they should be. But there's there's i think, arguments on both sides for that. So for me, it's more just trying to empathize with you know, women's experiences and recognize the impact that men's behaviors have. And I think being a therapist, I do probably have a slight advantage in being able to just sit back and listen and you know, demonstrate that understanding and empathy and being curious rather than being defensive.

11:58 So I've probably had that experience in separating ego from you know, reality, and I think a lot of men, from the way they come into my lives, especially let alone women's lives. You can hear what they're ready for. They're ready for an argument, they're ready to defend themselves and other men, and you're already kind of working at I suppose if I'm going to parallel that to something else, it's similar to when a client comes to therapy but they don't want therapy. It's almost like, oh, I've been told I have to do this or just because I need to. And it's like, well, we're just not going to do the work because you need to be open to this conversation or to the process, and that's where it becomes quite resistant and difficult. Yeah, when you identified those certain you know, those couple of misogynistic traits so to speak, that you have, did you pinpoint that they will learned behaviors from very young or from more teenage? You know, how do you think those have developed within you?

12:50 Yeah? I think it was probably Again, I will blame it on social conditioning patriarchy, and I will say that's what's responsible for it, because I think, you know, you could you can look at so many different areas in the world world where you can find nuances that uphold that mixed with actual statistics. So the things I talk about at times is like sometimes TV shows, you know, Friends in particular, you know the sitcom. Oh, yes, one of the prompts I have is about the friend zone not existing. I just think it's this concept made up that men sort of hide behind. And when I talk to them about Ross's character, we start to see the actual behaviors of him in how he you know, was around Rachel and it was his character was quite deceptive, it was quite coercive, it was quite selfish, you know, the opposite of being a supportive friend, let's say, because it was all through the things that he wanted that he didn't communicate.

13:38 And so when you address the behavior and focus on what he didn't do correctly in that situation, you start to realize it's not actually quite the love story that it's painted out to be. You could then tie that into things like I talk about with regards to children's clothing. So when you go to the boys section, typically on T shirts, you'll see things like cars, dinosaurs, monsters, and on girl's clothes you'll see things like fairies, bunnies, and you're looking at predator and prey and you you know it's yeah, so things like that where you don't really think about it until it's pointed out, but you know, you've got dinosaurs. What type of words would you use to describe a dinosaur danger, scary, aggressive, big, whereas with a bunny it would be what small, cute? You know, So we have these associations. Looking at Jules's.

14:25 Reaction, Wow, my brain just like I'm that like mind blown emoji right now. So there's nuances of it everywhere, and again I wouldn't have thought of that. I wouldn't have thought of that if it was put to me. So all of this education has come from women, you know, because they have experienced this, they know what's going on, they know what's around them, they understand it fully. You know. The difference between it is there will be men that will hear it and just go whatever, and it's like, yeah, male privilege. You can say whatever and just not think about it. So there's a lot of that. One of the main questions I love asking men in the chat when they come up on the panel. Sorry, I'll say to them. Let's say you're walking into a charity shop with your son and he's like four years old or something, and you're saying to him, you can go and buy any tour you want today, You've had a great day, go and pick something, and he comes back with a doll?

15:11 What are you going to do? And the amount of men that will say no, no, no, no, girls play with dolls. Go find something else, I'm just like. So then we start to also take into consideration of, you know, gender roles and how it's like boys do this, girls do that you get shamed, if you do something that girls should do, you get mocked, you get bullied, whatever it is. This is what makes you more of a man. You know, these phrases man up, boys don't cry. These things still exist today and they just you know, they make things worse in a world where I believe is very difficult to live in. In comparison, I'm not saying in the past it wasn't difficult to live in those conditions or circumstances, but today there's actually just so much more to process just technology alone, Internet, social media pressures.

15:54 There's a lot for people feeling like how do I fit into this world? So when we look at mental health for men specifically, that's getting worse. Suicide rates are at one of the highest right now, and it's like even patriarchy recognizing that it doesn't benefit men, but men not recognizing that they're in that system in itself. They view it a lot of time more as a gender war versus a system war. You know, right. Now the narrative is changing. For your right mental health is deteriorated and me aliving is really high numbers. But now the narrative is that women are at fault for that, because we're no longer providing men with that patriarchal platform to be who they need to be. So immediately, again, women are blamed for the actions of men.

16:41 Yeah, because women aren't doing what men have always told women to do through through lack of rights, as in rights being taken away through I suppose again social conditioning of patriarchy and men's voices carrying more weight, more power, more more dominance, and so yeah, we're seeing birth rates to climent, we're seeing women divorcing more, and we're seeing women not wanting to be in relationships with men as much. And the only thing that really in my mind that has changed from all this is when women had to depend on men for finances, they. Have no choice. It was either they couldn't work, or if they did work, the money went to the husbands. Now we're seeing women work. So I don't need a man for his money. I don't need a man for his quote unquote protection because arguably it'd be better if men just didn't harm rather than oh, you'd protect me if there was harm. That's that's hypothetical stuff.

17:29 Yes, it's a novel, cont isn't there. Yeah? Yeah, And I find it so frustrating when I asked men, how are men protectors? Like, tell me, and they go, well, if someone breaks into your house and I'm like, I've lived, I've lived thirty six years. No one's ever broken into my house. Touch would, and I'm great. Not something happening on a daily basis where men are coming home maybe from work, sitting on the couch watching TV, but continuously looking at the window thinking. Is someone going to break it? It's just I'm ready. So it's not to be disrespectful, it's just more that's not protection. So if men's traditional gender stereotypical roles has always been a protector and a provider and they're not really doing those things now, then what do men have to offer that men are also encouraging of men? Where are men saying, listen, work on your emotional intelligence, work on being a good communicator. Those are not things that make you quote unquote masculine. So therefore men don't push that.

18:26 They don't think that makes you a high value man. But ultimately, if that is what they think is a high value man, that's not what women are after. They're not after that type of a high value man because they see a high value man as more. Those things listed emotional intelligence, communication, and kindness. Those are I think the top three things that have been more desirable for women lately from what I've seen online. Yes, there are going to be women who still want the tradition, you know, that's entirely up to them. Got nothing against that. However, if everybody pushes that narrative that's how it should be. You're just upholding oppression in what it used to be like, which is men do this and then women you stick to your role. And you know there's a lot of women that don't want to be mums and that that's also something that was pushed, right, is your role is to have children. So when that's changing, men instead of not like respecting or understanding women's standards, they're saying that they're unreasonable. They're saying that they're you know, too over the top. And it's like, no, it's just because you don't have those things.

19:20 It's all it is. You know, if you don't have the emotional intelligence and communication that you know, it's keeping a conversation stimulated. As far as as far as a lot of women are concerned, I want to be with someone who's present. In the relationship. Yeah, yes, and on an emotional level as well. So yes, a lot of men blaming women, and women aren't even blaming men. They're actually again blaming patriarchy, right, Patriarchy ugly is men in terms of the way it's upheld, so fighting for the same system, but men are viewing it as actually it's it's man hating. And yes, just not that, it's just not that at all. Yeah. And what's so what's kind of so ironic is like in the space where we are met, right, because I have a friend of mine who I was telling her about our podcast in the space, and so she listened to a little bit of one of the audios and she's like, oh my god. She's like, I'm just not going to listen to someone call me a good girl and like all this kind of she's like, this is like her hackles got up her. She says, She's like, I'm just too much of a feminist. And I said, we'll see. That's the difference here is that in this space, to your pointless, the creators men women are otherwise are incredibly emotional, intelligent, sensitive, caring, compassionate. This is not that world, and so women are drawn to this space, and we hear from women a lot about how they feel healed in this space because they feel really seen for who they are and not objects. Right, Because it's a listener.

20:39 It's an immersive audio, so there's the voice actor and then the listener is the other character, and so it's a very loving, compassionate type exchange. And so a lot of women could look into this space from Afar and go, oh my god, look at all these women pandering to the men. And it's like, no, you have no idea, Like they're being treated here in a way that they don't get elsewhere. It's really hard for people to understand that. I think, all right, I got to go back to the I'm bringing friends the Friends show back around. So I guess I'm thinking about it now that you. Brought it up. Is Rachel and Ross's love story was like the biggest love story. No one saw it as coersion or anything. So it wasn't until about I want to say, like six or seven years ago that you started seeing people online saying this is the show everyone thought was this amazing love story blah blah blah. So I'm wondering, like, when do you think from you know, two thousand and three to now, when do you think the narratives did start to change? Because I feel like all of a sudden, everyone was talking more about this, when again in two thousand and three, no one was. Were we just evolving or is it more social media?

21:40 Yeah? I think it's awareness of behaviors. I think it's recognizing actually that certain behaviors that have always been supposedly accepted are actually harmful. And you know, we have words for that, manipulation, coercion. Not to say that we never used to have those words, but we're now able to identify them more, especially when you see the whole relationship and how it started and continued. So season one, episode seven, I think Ross was told he's in the friend zone by Chandler and Joey. If we think about his dynamic at that point, he hadn't disclosed his feelings for Rachel, so she didn't know she could have had an inkling, but he didn't tell her right, So he was positioning himself as everyone's friend, so friend friendship boundaries of a friendship. And then slowly you start to see that she gets a partner called Paolo. When they're around each other, you can see the jealousy. You can see how uncomfortable he feels. You can then see how uncomfortable the friends around him feel seeing him not want to see that. Even when Rachel and Paolo are kissing in front of everyone and he's there, even if it's just a kiss goodbye, I think it was or something, but just in general, he didn't like it. When they then broke up, Chandler and Joey basically were saying, this is your chance, this is your chance to be the one to go over there and show her that you're the one that she should be with, and so he uses that opportunity as a way to console her, but also in a way of ulterior motive, which is like, I'll go and support you, but deep down I want something else. I want to be your friend, even though you can be friends. I get it, But those feelings are affecting that dynamic, because if you didn't have those feelings, you'd go and support anyway. Yes, h Chandler could have gone and supported for some reason.

23:12 You do it. Why because there's something different going on for you? Yeah? Right, So it's not really supporting as a genuine, authentic friend, right, So then the friend zone gets positioned as something you can quote unquote get out of right out of this friend zone into relationship. And the point is, this whole time, Rachel didn't know as far as Rachel's concerned, you're my friend. That's the boundary. If anything, you're just Monica's brother, you know, right. So when we see. Relationships now, or or should we say not relationship but dating dynamics, we see in society a lot of time now when two friends are friends for X amount of years and one of them develops feelings, and let's say it's the man in this situation. He says, look, I have romantic feelings towards you. Do you want to go out on a date, blah blah blah. And she says, no, I'd rather see I think we're just best being friends.

24:01 And then he'll go, oh, I've been friend zoned, and it's you haven't been friend zoned. You got rejected, so it's called what it is heat. For her, the boundaries are the same. I saw you as a friend, I still see you as a friend, So for me, we're friends or nothing. So he's just added this new dynamic of oh, friend zone and a new dynamic, a new concept right, which arguably she's not in in with because she didn't agree to that. Or consent to that. So he's just in this thing by himself, and it's like, why are we giving it a word? You got rejected, You now have a choice now. The issue that I have with this next part is a lot of men will just go okay, yeah, that's fine and accept the friendship. I say that a lot of men do this thing, which is loitering with intent, similar to the rossing, which is like, I'll accept the friendship, but you know what, maybe over a period of time, she might change your mind.

24:46 So I'm going to be present. I'm still going to be here because you never know. And if you've constantly got that in your mind, then you're not actually respecting the friendship. You're seeing her as a potential partner. Mm hmmm. Right, So again as far as she's concerned. And by the way, I don't up hold double standards. If this was the other way round and women did this. I'd say the same, yeah, yeah, of course. The term is therefore, in my opinion, used to deflect away from the behaviors of what does exist right manipulation or communication, coercion, so when we're direct with the behavior and we focus on what is existing, we can hold people accountable for it, whereas in the Friends series no one held him accountable for it. You know, it was encouraged.

25:28 It was encouraged to say, go on off, you go, like now you can, you know, show her, rather than like, hold a minute, she's just broken up from relationship. Really that you want to go in and start having your ulterior motives, you're centering yourself. So yeah, we start to see these dynamics a little bit more for what they are. I actually think the first time I ever heard about the word misogyny was two and a half Men. Oh okay, you remember that, Charlie. Yeah, now, men, that's it now. I'll be honest with you. I loved the show. I loved it right, and when I look at the ingrained again patriarchy, misogyny, I'm watching it thinking, lots of money, lots of women can't complain great lifestyle. I wasn't someone who I never drank alcohol, so that side of it what I didn't care about. But then if you look at the way that Allan was posed, he was posed as a character that was you know, stereotypically less masculine.

26:18 The person that did everything right in terms of had a great job, didn't have things handed to him in terms of that privilege, but you know, had a divorce situation, stereotypically wasn't the attractive one out of the two in comparison, and therefore then never got the women. So what does that push to all the young men and teenagers watching that They think, well, if you're not good looking and if you do things right, then you don't get anywhere in regards to life. But if you treat women like you know, objects, and if you have money, you can have whatever you want. So whilst whilst I watched it from a comedy perspective thinking oh some of these things that are done instaid are funny, I'm not looking at it from that deep patriarchal perspective and thinking what actually what message is actually sending out?

27:00 And Charlie Shane was definitely mess at acting, then. Yeah, so that's that's what I think. You know, until it's put to you, you don't always notice it. You don't, And that's again literally the male privilege that just is like a filter, it's just not there. What was that Jewels you. You taught me about some tests that they use the movies. The Bechdel test. Yeah, what is that again? The Bechdel test, So in films it's to measure if a woman has another conversation with another woman that's not about a man. So if a woman talks to another woman about anything else other than a man. And there's so many TV shows and movies that don't like Sex and the City that show one of my favorite shows ever, that doesn't.

27:42 Pass the Bechdel test. They're always talking about a men's they're using it now to say, hang on a second, women are more than talking about their guys, you know. So yeah, so they're using it in films now to kind of just like make more awareness with that. But yeah, it's called the Bechdel test. I love the word accountability, Lex, so a kind of would like to take you back in a time machine. And so little Lex growing up, So do you remember little X. Look at little Alex there look cars and his action men and his yea. All the man. So accountability. I don't know what your family situation. Why was your father, your brother said, his siblings, uncles, all your male influences, So when do you think accountability needs to start.

28:33 I think it's I mean, it's as soon as you are able to process the things you've done that are right and wrong. Like I've got a five year old. I know you've taken me back to little Lex. I'm an only child, so I don't have siblings, but I did live in the very I would say it was. It was a privileged household in the sense that we weren't rich but had everything we needed. Mum and dad both work, I would say, probably times wrapped in cotton wall by mum and you know, very respectful father, very nice neighborhood, very nice schools. Like it was a great childhood, if I'm being completely honest. So I recognize that when I look at my like, I'm trying to think of ages because I can't remember too much of my childhood in terms of accountability on that sense. But my son, for example, who's five. You know, people take the mick out of this when I share it online, but I think it's actually quite important. We were filling up at a petrol station not long ago, maybe four or five months ago, and this woman got out of the car in front to fill up petrol and he went girls can't fill up petrol. And I thought, oh, how interesting.

29:32 So I looked back him and went, what made you say that? And he froze, thinking have I said something wrong? I don't know, and I realized in my head, I thought to myself, wow, like this is quite powerful, this moment, right, social conditioning happening early in real time. So then I thought to myself before I respond, I'm going to just think about it for a second in terms of you know, I'll fill up the petrol when it's my turn, go and pay, and then I'll respond when I come back, just because I want to give myself time to process it. And I recognize, like I'm the driver of the family, the one that does the school pickups, I'm the one that does the school drop offs. I'm the one that fills up the petrol and does the food shop. So he comes with me on those things, and he sees Daddy do all of those things, okay, And so he sees that Mummy doesn't have a car because Mummy gets the train to work. So then I think to myself, I can understand why you'd think that. So is he at fault for saying it?

30:21 No? But is there an opportunity to if the word is accountability or more just you know, teaching, whatever it might be. If I leave that comment for him to think it's okay to hold on to as a belief, then that's arguably me not being held accountable, you know, because I'm the one who can step in to correct that. Similar to when we're at home and mummy joins in to play football. Girls can't play football. Okay, well, let's think about this. I'm always the one playing football when I watch football, I do watch men's football, and I'm the one that you know, shows him videos when matches are on when he's asleep, and I show him the highlights. So what's he processing in his mind? He's processing and mixed with the fact that at school majority of the time the boys are playing football, they will they will start to shape this reality of, you know, what the world is like for them, and so the accountability I think is more at that age. In my opinion, the accountability is on parents, Yeah, which is how are you addressing those conversations to enable them to realize, actually, that's not the way the world is though, even though you might see it that way, it doesn't mean that's how it has to be, you know, as in, you know there's women's football, we know that women drive cars. So just because he's not exposed to it, we understand how he got to that conclusion. But then we we rectify that, we correct that, and we say, actually, so when when you know, majority of families might be reading children's books about whatever stories it might be, the majority of our books are about feelings, and you know, talking about being open and honest, We've got like two or three full set collections of different emotions because I think it's important for him to understand how to process them as early

31:52 as possible. Yes, there are your obvious stories of you know, silliness and you know, laughter. But what I love now is when I say, right, god've got two boys, so one of them, it's like your turn today to choose the story, and they go and choose one that's about the feeling. And then at the end, it's like just asking a couple of questions, did you feel this today. At any point? You know one of the questions, And it's just getting him to be in touch with you know, knowing it's okay to experience them, recognizing what it feels like, what to do when you feel that way. Don't get me wrong, At times they don't, you know, acknowledge it in the moment because they're five. We have grown men who can't manage their not going to expect it. Of a five. But I will have that conversation because I think it's important.

32:34 So it's it's a balance, I think, so yeah. I think coming back story to the accountability part, in that sense, I think it is more with the parents in terms of how you handle those situations. I think it'd be a bit unfair for a five year old to need to be accountable for something that they don't quite understand yet. But I know what you mean that there has to be a point where they start to identify it themselves, and I think that would be through those behaviors at school in terms of how you maybe talk to our student, how you talk to a teacher, because the majority of the time kids are at school more than they are at home. So how do you how do you navigate the kind of overwhelm of always feeling like you're swimming upstream? You know, because like you said, you can, you know, teach the kids in your life one way, but then they go someplace else and it's just completely undone. So how do you how do you keep going.

33:21 Well, because I think you have to. It's tough because I think, yes, you're you're always going to be battling against the social aspects of you know, whoever is around you that's out of your control mhm. So unfortunately, again it has to come to the internal, which is, I believe what I'm doing is the best for you know, our family, for our children, and I'm going to keep sticking to that because I believe that's the right way and that other families are going to say the same even if it goes against it mm hm. So part of that conversation is also reminding them that you know, other people have different views. So there's an element of yes, i'm your parent, and yes there are boundaries that don't get crossed. But at the same time, there's there's pockets of autonomy that you can give to your children where they feel like they were part of decision making. You know, even from the very typical right, we're going out later, there's three options, which one do you want to choose? Okay, I want to do that perfect now we're all in agreement, but we gave you a bit of autonomy to be involved in that conversation, you know, so a little bit to them, but the majority still holds of that power dynamic in you as the authoritative parent. But apply that to your conversations as well. Right, so, you know you've got some reading to do, and I can hear that you don't want to do that because for you it's boring.

34:34 How can we make it exciting? I'll tell you what. Let's see how long it takes you to read these two pages, just to see whether or not you can do it in less than and you can give a ridiculous number, like if you know they can read it in two minutes, you say, let's see if you can do it in less than five. Yeah, yeah, yes, And I'm not saying do it every time because then, yes, I know you're kind of conditioning your children to then do it based on time. But for a way of encouragement, as a one off, you can do that a little bit of fun, make it a bit of fun, you know, and then go back to the tomorrow's a new day. Hopefully tomorrow wee can do the reading. And yeah, I think it's about being as inclusive as you can where they don't feel like it's always hearing the word no, yes. You know, they go off to their friends and it's like, oh, it's so unfair. And then suddenly they're listening to what they have and before you know it, friendships are you know, coliding together, and it's like, oh, now you've got to battle against what their friends are affirming.

35:24 Which is the problem because you said, you know, going out into the big wide world, the influence is there, the fear of being the odd one. Now in a group of lads where you know one of them, you know, exhibits bad behaviors towards a woman and nobody else says anything. That's another part of accountability to So I assume you do that now, Lex, But how do we get those silent men to start making their friends, their family members, male friends and family members accountable for the behaviors that they express towards women in public or behind the doors.

36:07 It has to be through again, unfortunately, encouraging conversations in the sense that you are doing this because you care and because you have you know, these men will have women in their lives. Is when you make it about their family members, they suddenly get it. Yep, you know, like if it was your sister, if it was your mother, and it's like, oh yeah, I probably wouldn't feel comfortable if they were being cat called across the street. You're right, I'd feel a certain way. Okay, perfect, So the only way, the only reason you feel that way is because you know the person and you have a relation to them. But with the greatest respect the next woman it happens to, just because you're not related to them doesn't mean that it's any less of a problem. And there will be men in her lives that will feel the way you do, because she will have family members, she will have loved ones. So men need to try and apply it to a societal level rather than this idea of close proximity. One of the phrases, or should I say, talking points is I don't know if you've heard it, but it's all men intal no men.

36:57 And if you've ever heard yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. So I have that on my panel as a prompt a lot of the time, and you know, it's one of the biggest ones that men get triggered by. You know, they think that they've made it a point when they go does that include you? Lex And I'm like, yeah, you know, doesn't say all men intal no men except me. I'm the only one bit ridiculous to say that. I said, of course, And they don't quite understand it unless you personalize it. And so what I try to do is I try to say to them that I'll include myself in these hypotheticals with you so that you don't feel like you're targeted. And that's what I mean about the coddling. It's like I almost feel like I have to coddle these men when I talk about this.

37:37 So I put myself in there because I get it, but for some reason they don't. So I'm like, chuck me in the equation. Now let's talk. But the issue that I have is that men also believe in the phrase all menntal no men. They just say it differently. And this is the bit that I find quite interesting. So I'll ask men if they think that boyfriends have an issue if their girlfriends wanted to go clubbing without them, and they'd say yeah. A lot of them will say yeah, some will say no, that's fine, some will say yeah. And I go, why do you think there are men out there that would have an issue? And I'll say oh, because you know they might cheat on me. And I'm like, okay, well that's an insecurity of your relationship if you feel your partner would cheat on you. What else, though, because I'm not saying it's not valid you feel. It's how you feel. But what else, Like, is there anything about their safety? And like, oh, yeah, a man could follow her, or a man could put something in her drink or approach her and not leave her alone. And I go, okay, would you feel more comfortable?

38:27 She said, I'm going to an all women's club. I'll say yeah, I'm like okay, So what's clear is you feel more uncomfortable when men are around. They're like yeah, okay, So now we're get in somewhere. So you're not saying every man at that club is going to harm your partner, but you recognize enough men behave in that way that some might. And the point is you're not going to say I know which men I feel comfortable about and which men I don't, because you don't know which men are at the club. But that discomfort that you feel is applied to any man in proximity to her, because you know that some of these men are want of these men could do that, And I said, that's exactly how women feel when they say that they're wary and cautious of men. Is you could be the nicest guy in the world, you could be the kindest man in the world. You could even have like a title of that by being awarded it from somewhere. But if you're walking next to a woman on the street and she doesn't know who you are, you're just a man, you know, and you have to recognize that that it's not about you personally. So I always say to them the same for me. If I'm walking past a woman on the street, she doesn't know who I am, right, why would I expect her to just automatically feel safe walking past me when I feel safe because again of privilege in that situation, yep, because I know I'm not going to do anything, but she doesn't. That's the difference right already, even from the thought process, I hold the power in that dynamic. So that's one of the biggest things that I talk about is again a lot of its contradictions hypopc diasees, and that that's where the explorative topics around that come from as well.

39:52 Yeah, I think that the conversational part is so big that you say because even sometimes it's hard for even me, Like an example, I this just made me with talking about the bars, is I a couple of years ago was at a bar where they have on the menu you can order a shot. A woman could order a shot if they feel uncomfortable with a guy. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. They do that someplace. They usually call them angel shots, So if some guy is following you around or something, you can go up to the bar and say, hey, I need an angel shot. And I remember I was just talking with some guy that was at the bar while I was waiting for a drink, and that was on the menu, and he was like, oh, like well, I would never do that, And I almost didn't say anything, but I decided to and I looked at him and I go, but how do I know that? And he was just like what. I was like, I don't know who you are. How do I know that? And it was like the only time I'd ever actually spoken up and saw kind of his sort of realization like hmm huh, yes, but I almost didn't say anything.

40:42 Yeah for me, then if you're if a man has explained it that way, or with his ten cookies chocolate chip. Nine of them have chocolate chips in it, one of them has dogshit chips. Eat the cookies and they'll go no, no, no, because I don't know which one is, because they will look the same. For me. Then, if a man is explained and they still don't get it, I believe me believing that they then feel they are entitled to do what they want with women, and there's no changing them. If you ever explained something to detail, it's so clear, and then they still don't agree with it, and they're actually angrily defensive about it. For me, they are men that will have a tendency or have already done things bad to women.

41:24 This is the problem is that a lot of men do get defensive about it. And I've seen some content creators who have seen that analogy and then they go and do their own video take on it and say, well, you know, you can't really think like that, because you know, you would take each cookie one by one and you would get to know the cookie to see whether it is okay to eat blah blah blah. And I'm like that now we're just fixed in blaming Yeah. Yeah, because I'll do that walking down the street dark at night on my own mind, right, Yeah. But arguably also what men are going to come up to you and go hey, in five years time, I plan on being abusive, right like men don't saying men don't show those behaviors from bel if that is what their intention is going to be. And so there's now this victim blaming mindset of women should know when you're getting to know someone, you should spot the red flags, you should know how he's going to behave And it's like, this is the issue is that the emphasis gets placed on the victim as opposed to who is the one who is causing the hum That's where you know, that's where the limelight needs to be showne on right, because it just diminishes the survivor's experience of whatever it might be. So, yes, I do agree that if men don't quite understand it from that, then I'm wondering what it is they're operating in as a defense mechanism. You'll get a lot of men that will try to deviate to you know, trying to apply that phrase to other demographics. They'll try and say, well, then you could just say this about this demographic, and they don't realize that any demographic you're trying to apply it to would be inclusive of men. So if you're trying to take out a demographic, you are just being either racist, transphobic, or homophobic if you're focusing on that demographic,

42:54 because they would also come under men anyway. So now you're trying to exclude a group when men are already the privileged group in comparison to women the oppressors. Unfortunately, men do reveal themselves a lot when they, you know, talk about these topics and the ways that they try to tackle it. Can you think of like one or two examples from I know, you know, you have very successful lives on TikTok and you do this panel. Can you share, like, what are two examples of conversations you've had with men who came up on the panel and you really felt a shift in them or saw a shift in them. Yeah, I mean I had one yesterday. And what I'm trying to do is actually clip some of these to be able to put on my YouTube channel to have as moments. One of them mainly body count. Body count is the biggest one, So I do the whole topic around yeah.

43:40 Reaction. Lord. And so I think, like I tried to frame it. From the perspective of getting them to detach away from the number versus the context. If a woman told you her BodyCount was thirty, I always say, it doesn't actually tell you anything factual about who they are as a person. Doesn't tell you. That doesn't tell you if they're they've got a good sense of humor, doesn't tell if they're respectful, doesn't tell you if they've got same you know, goals in the future. So what you're doing is you're taking a number and you're making up stories. You're making up assumptions on what it means. Yeah, oh, if your body can'ts thirty, it must mean this. No, that's what you think it means. And so I always say that actually you're projecting your beliefs onto body count mattering, and the initial part of it is misogyny or insecurities. So so men might say, well, if a woman's had you know, that much sex, that much sex, then you know she's got no self respect or you know, they try and use the car.

44:35 And mileage analogy. But if you've heard yeah, yeah, the lock and key analogy. And it's like ye, well, and it's it's so it's dehumanizing, it's objectifying, and it's degrading, right, So that's the misogyny. Whereas some men will say, yeah, but she she might cheat on you, or she might compare you to other men, she might compare the size of other men to you, and I'm like, okay, well that's your insecurity. So what I'm saying is the body count is not the issue. It's the way you interpret that number. That is the issue. And where's that coming from. So I do get a lot of men that hear that and think, okay, like I'm starting to see that, and then yeah, there's been I think there's probably four or five men that come back all the time after having their perspectives changed and now support the Live. It's really nice to see that.

45:19 And they're always, yeah, i'll be honest with you, that doesn't sound like it doesn't sound like a lot after a couple of years, but. That's right. But in terms of the fact that they come back and stay, that's what I mean. They are now supporting the live. Some of them also, you know, they've spoken about stories where they talk to their friends at work and how that's you know, changed perspectives. And I always say to people, you have to recognize, in my opinion, that you don't know who's in the life just watching you. Two days ago, I think the live was on about four hundred you know people watching, and I know I get roughly two hundred who are you know, regular supporting. But when those numbers go up, a lot of men will not want to come up and talk, and a lot of men will not want to type comments. They'll just want to and listen and see what's said. And you just don't know what conversations that sparks off with people in their life where they go to you know what.

46:05 I was on a live the other day they said this, what do you think? And it's the conversations that are being had that hopefully make changes. So in immediate view of seeing change, yes, there have been men that have changed perspectives. And even today, those same men will see new prompts that I put up and they'll go, right, I don't get this one explained to me, and I'm like, of course, and then I'll go ah, and I'm like yeah, but they're curious at least, right, And I think the best feeling that I get from it without trying to cener myself too much. Is when the men say, do you know what, I've watched you for about three or four months now, and I really hated you when I first watched you, and now I'm starting to get it, and I'm like, I appreciate that because I'm like, you know what, I don't care.

46:48 If you like me or not. I'm not there to be liked, right, I'm there to provide the information and education. Yes, some people might not like the way I deliver it, but that's no different to being at school and saying I don't deal with this teacher. I don't learn in that way, and that's fine. I'm not going to tailor it to every individual that might be needing to hear it differently and then to do it my way and if it aligns, great. But while I will always say in that space is please go and spend time in women's lives who are hosting similar prompts or slightly different, and go and look at the way they are treated in comparison. Because I have a fantastic moderator team, they are receiving death threats, sexual sexually explicit threats in DMS. All the time things that also go way beyond that in terms of affecting real life situations. And I look at it and think to myself, there's me hosting the live and I don't get any of that, and yet the moderators who are protecting the space women are then on the receiving end.

47:39 And it's like, do you. Feel that if there's a connection between man's misogyny and his own emotional wounds rather than a man's misogyny based on just being a. Dick own emotional wounds. It's really difficult because I think that the society that we're being brought up in today, I think is probably the most awareness being raised on social media for men's behavior, mainly because of the you know, the capability that social media has, but also because of how quick stories get to be shared around, so it's always being spoken about. More people are speaking up about it, and I think that you know, generates a feeling within men when they see all of that, because they sort of, you know, think, oh, I'm just being painted as one of these men and I'd never do something like that, But then they'll switch off from that content and not really engaged.

48:31 You know. It's just like, well, you know, that's that's horrible. But I move on and carry on, and men get to kind of turn a blind eye to that, and the only thing they need to do really is just talk about how it bothers them and their image, so again centering themselves, and it lacks that empathy to be extended to the other side. You know, it's a conversation. But the reason women are talking about this with what I would describe is as passion is then also then misconstrued to you know, all she's quite aggressive, or she's quite angry, or like, all she's emotional. Yeah, and it's and this is the issue, right is again it's just it's infantalizing, isn't it?

49:13 You know exactly? Dare I use the word privilege again. But. Seems it seems to be Yeah, it really does. I would always encourage that. I think it was yourself, Kaz that mentioned earlier about the group of boys in terms of saying something in your friendship group and being about how you get treated. Right. This is another example is that men cling on to friendships that don't really benefit them. I've said a lot of the time that I think a lot of men's and even teenage boys. But I think a lot of men's friendships are surface level, Right, how did you become friends? Are gaming? Football, sport? You know, maybe going out to the pub and whatever it might be, Right, it's it's all stuff that you enjoy doing, which is great, but the level of conversation usually sticks on those kind of topics. Yeah, and it's like, at what point do you explore emotional concepts in a friendship where you can say, hey, whilst we have all this fun together, are we ever able to be there to support each other on emotional level?

50:14 I think that if a majority of friendships, I think if men were really feeling something and they know how their friends behave, they don't feel they can go to their friends about it because they'll be ostracized, they'll get bullied, they'll get ridiculed, and then they'll realize actually that their friendships are not as strong as they thought they were. So what do we have? We have friendships where men are suppressing again because they'd rather do that than lose their sense of belonging and community, rather than thinking, actually, maybe it's not actually as healthy of a friendship as I thought it was. That's a really good point about the male friendships because even like some of my brothers, my husband, they are so surprised when they hear about the level of things that women talk about together, Like you told them that you. Talked about that with them. I'm like, yeah, it's like an everyday text I send.

50:56 I'm curious your take on this because I know you, like you said before, you like the of men or you know, there might be four or five instances that you can think of where men were really impacted by your lives. But then the people that they share with is great. I just saw someone post us recently online about how you know they don't want to kind of applaud men for speaking up for women because they should have been doing it all along. I won't impart my opinion, but what are your thoughts on that. It kind of reminds me of the perspective of men being protectors, where it's almost like we're calling not we, but figuratively speaking, we're calling men protectors on the basis that men are causing harm to begin with, right, So if men of the perpetrators are they also the protectors? That doesn't make sense.

51:37 Yeah, So to come back to your point, it's like, yes, are we praising men for speaking up when the only reason they are speaking up is because there's a problem that men created in the first place. So no, I think it's a bare minimum thing, which is like, actually, we should all be doing it anyway, but are we at times doing it because we have to, you know, And that's really that's really what's quite sad, is that there is an issue amongst men whereby those behaviors have got to a point where yes, men are speaking up about it, and then sometimes they do get praised. Sometimes it happens to me. I get really. Uncomfortable when I'm in the lives and you know, people are saying, oh, Lex, you're doing such an amy, You're doing God's work, You're doing amazing, and I'm just like, I don't really like that because for me, it's it's that's not what this is about. It's you know, it's just bare minimum stuff. It's it's educating men because this is something we have to deal with. That's just me doing my bit because I think that's what we need to do.

52:28 We'll be right back to continue our conversation with Lex straight after the next installment of Peaching It Real. Teaching It Real will every time we gets freeview thieves, hearting thoughts, cun being served every time. Thank you Kasa, Jules and Smudge. This is peaching it real, and I'm peachers. In this segment, I'm going to be talking about men and how men can be better or should be better, to be honest, because over the last few weeks, over the last few months, over the entirety of our existence on this planet, men have been doing abhorrent things, and I would say it needs to stop, but round every corner there is something more abhorrent, and it makes me ashamed of my gender. It truly does.

53:33 Just as I was about to start recording, I was scrolling on Instagram and one of my favorite accounts has come up. It's good for keeping you abreast of news in terms of feminism, My Voice, my Choice org. So if anyone's not following. Go and have a look. It'll keep you up to date about what's happening in the world concerning feminine women's health issues, etc. I've just read that the head of the German Criminal Investigators BDK is telling women not to date men because they are a danger to their safety. So once again a man has told women the whole country full of women not to date men because men are dangerous. This is, in my eyes, just the same as someone telling a woman not to wear something because it might attract the attention of men. And the thing is, I am not shocked.

54:35 That's the really, really sad thing. I am not shocked to see that. It's almost as if we've come to this point where we've exhausted all other options and now it's falling onto women. It's falling onto a criminal investigation department to tell women to abstain from any kind of direct contact with men because of how dangers as they can be. And when I hear men say it's not all men, it makes me think, prove it. We're not proving it as a gender right now, that we are a safe part of this world. Calling out bad behavior is one thing, and it's important that we continue to do that, and within the AE community, I've been seeing a lot of that recently, and it's so good to see that people are standing up themselves and giving men that slap on the wrist. Right, but a slap on the wrist is not enough to fully educate. Realistically, nothing's going to happen overnight, right, This is going to be an ongoing battle. Just as it took Andy DeFraine years and years to chisel his way through that prison wall to freedom, it is going to take a long long time to inform and even through that journey, there are going to be more roadblocks, There are going to be more hurdles to jump over. But the only thing that

56:07 we can do is try and remain positive and try and inform and try and educate as we go along. For example, I was at my barber's yesterday and the next client came in, and the barber and him, they obviously knew each other quite well, and they started talking. They got onto the subject of their partners, and then within that they were talking about how long it takes for their partners to get ready, and how it only takes them about fifteen minutes. And I was just listening. I was, you know, they were laughing. You know, that hideous word, banter back and forth. I hate that word so much.

56:48 Is just hideous. So I waited and I waited, and then once they'd kind of, you know, gotten to a point in the conversation where they were both very much in agree with each other, I brought up I just asked my barble the question, so, why do you think it takes them so long to get ready? And he said, oh, I know, they just want to look good. And I said, so, why do you think they want to look good? I said, well, they probably want to look good for me, or they don't want to feel self conscious when they're in public. And I was like, that's right, that's right. Why do you think they don't want to feel self conscious in public?

57:30 And he didn't say anything, and I said, it's because they have such harsh critique from for the most part, men. So this is a cyclical thing that has happened. This is something that has been involving for centuries that women need to make themselves look a certain way in order to be accepted by men, in order to not get looks, in order to bee fee confident enough just to simply exist in public. And so there was a little bit of a silence after I said that, and then the guy on the sofa said, you know, I'd not thought about it that way. And it's these little moments I before I asked the guy that question, before I asked my barber those questions, my heart was going and I was fearful of their reactions. To that because I've always been fearful of men myself. I've never really gotten on well in very male environments because I have never really quite understood that kind of side of masculinity before. I've never been a part of a group like that in my life, and doing something like that is terrifying for someone who has never been part of the typical lad culture that's what we call it in the UK anyway.

59:03 But it was that little fearful moment, those few seconds that I doubted whether I wanted to say anything, that was so important because the reaction I got was not one that I was expecting. I didn't get that much of a reaction out of the barber. He didn't really say anything, but the guy who sat on the sofa, it felt like he kind of accepted what I had said. And it's those moments that we need to really look for when we're in friendship groups, when we're out and about if it's just a stranger's conversation that you're overhearing, that could be a little bit more dangerous because you don't know the people at all. Some people do like to call that out, and that's great. Personally, I think i'd be a bit too fearful of that unless I'm in a group of people, So by yourself, be careful if you're thinking of doing that. But it's this is just an example of how things could possibly progress. We just need to educate, educate, and not simply call out.

1:00:07 That being said, please keep calling people out because it is so so important, but if you can educate a long way, that is even more important. And I'm not saying this to say directly to anyone in particular, because I know that the people who are listening right now are largely women or non binary people. But you will all know men in your life. So men educating men is what we're looking for. Right. This shouldn't fall on anyone else as hard as it should. Men to educate men. So tell your partners, tell your brother, tell your dad, tell your grandfather, tell your your cousins, tell your nephews. To educate other men, and if they're the ones in need of education, get someone to kick them up the bum and change their views somehow. Because, as we know, the men who are a part of the manusphere or who have been influenced by the manisphere, what they were really looking for, What they're looking for is strength as a person and guidance a place in this world. And all that's happened is they've gone looking in the wrong place and they've stumbled into a hideously toxic,

1:01:38 misogynistic space that they think is strength, which it obviously isn't to so many people on the outside looking in. So I'm going to leave it there. Thank you for listening to another segment of Peaching It Real. This one ran on a little bit longer because, as you can probably tell, I'm quite passionate about this subject. So thank you Kazah, Jules and Smudge yet again for indulging me, for allowing me the space, and I'll see you very soon. Bye bye. Now. You can find Peaches on Instagram and TikTok OnlyFans, and as a voice actor on the Quinn app. He also has an active Discord and Patreon community. All the links can be found in our show notes.

1:02:26 So we recently have the Louis throw Monosphere, which I think has thrown up an awful lot of conflict and conversations. Yeah, how did you feel about that particular show on what it showed, what it represented? So I was quite I was a little bit underwhelmed but that's because I think I'm aware of all these behaviors. So I believe Myron was one of the people in there. Yeah, I've spent two and a half years stitching his videos, so to see him model, oh yeah. My profile is literally all about his videos being stitched from his podcast. So when I saw him on there, I was like, I know all this stuff. It doesn't surprise me, it doesn't shock me. But I think it was great how Louis was able to draw out some again contradictions and almost make it seem like it's performative, and I don't.

1:03:12 I don't quite like it being described as that because I think that, you know, even if it was performative on some level, I do think that they mean what they say. I do. I don't think it's all rage bait, and I don't think it's all just clickbait. I think they do. They do believe in what they're saying, because they try to uphold that dynamic as much as possible. There was a part of me that, like, I understood that it was an awareness thing for people to start talking. For me personally, I felt like, if there are parents out there who have never really heard about any of this before. I don't know where they you know, they're probably thinking. Where do I go now? What do I do now in terms of research and what do I do with this information? Because it seems very surface level, because if you really get into it and explore what's going on, you can see how deep rooted it is. So I again, it's like, is it to have conversations with their children, if they've if they've got teenage boys?

1:03:59 If so? Great? A variety of reasons of why I thought it was good slash bad, but only because I just think it was something that I already knew pretty much everything that was said. You know, I know the people that were interviewed, I know what they stanned for. And there's plenty of unfortunatere's plenty of videos out there where some of the things they say are just horrific. Yeah. So, yeah, a mixed view for me, if I'm. Honest, It's such a difficult line to walk, right because like to go back to the kind of like you know, applauding men for speaking up or whatever. It's it is the bare minimum, You're right, Like, it's the bare minimum that should be happening. It's not happening. And so part of me feels like, why not encourage the men that do in hopes that other men are like, oh, this is what we should be doing. So I don't know, I think that acknowledging anyone speaking up man women or otherwise.

1:04:49 I just think only encourages more people. But I guess it's how you do it, Like you don't want to throw a party for them because they said they didn't say something negative about women. I think doing it based on the fact that they have done the bare minimum. I think I have a problem with doing some patting somebody on the back for doing what they should do as a human being. But I think what does need to be encouraged is for open conversations to have publicly, because when you said lex earlier that you know this is the time where it's just it's out there. Now there's so many more conversations about it, but it's still conversations that are being had by women. There's not a million Lexes out there, but there are ten million smudges out there having conversations all the time. How do we get to the point where it's not an embarrassment, there's no stigma around it, and they actually want to do it instead of being encouraged by performative pats on the back and well done you or for influencing purposes. How do we get to that point?

1:05:44 Lex Well again, unfortunately, I think it's a generational thing where you know, the new children that come into all the teenage era, it starts with parents. I think it starts with parents in the education system. You know we've got in the UK ante misogyny is soon going to be I think taught in schools. I'm doing my best to apply to as many schools as possible because I've got a presentation ready to go, workshops ready made to be able to do that. But it's it's so difficult to you know, every school they see the email and it's and you know, if I'm honest with you, a lot of admin don't quite want to read that whole you know things, But sometimes it just doesn't get anywhere. So I'm finding that really difficult. I don't know whether or not it hasn't been implemented yet as opposed to just it's confirmed it will happen. So but I think that it needs to start in the education system and parenting.

1:06:29 And so that's why I think back to the Lewis through thing. I do think it was helpful if it got parents who haven't seen it before aware, because if they're a teenage boy, you know, it will open conversations with them to say, have you seen this? And how much do you know about this? And now suddenly it's include remembers said earlier about including your children in conversations out of curiosity and not a place of you know, sort of I'm asserting my authority on you. That's how it needs to be. And I think, unfortunately there are a lot of parents out of it that think this is, you know, all gentle parenting styles and it doesn't have to be. You don't. You don't have to fully gentle parent to be able to be, you know, having conversations with your children at times in a gentle parenting style. You can apply both here, and I think that for the sake of how you can have a communicative discussion with your children that is this important. But I think you kind of do anything you can to try and make sure that conversation exists, rather than maybe the ego or pride of just I need to remain in my stance of how I've raised you and never deviate from it. There needs to be some flexibility on that as well.

1:07:30 Wow, you know what I hate that just popped into my head is that Kas and I live. In the US and where they teach pro misogyny. So when you mentioned the anti misogony they're gonna be teaching in school, my immediate thought was they will never happen there. It's so controversial, people would pull their kids out of school. Just I hate that. That's my first thought. I was like, Oh, that will never happen here right now. That's sad, I get it. I mean, you know, without going into the politics so much equals well, I know this is all political anyway, absolutely, but in regards to who's in charge, you know, I think enough set Yeah, And I don't laugh in a way of thinking it's funny. I just mean more it's just how how are you ever gonna That was a huge step back for women.

1:08:11 Huge huge. That's what's so disheartening is like it felt like we made such amazing progress over decades and decades and decades, and so much of it has been undone in not a very long time that it's it's hard to have any because you just think even after you know this administration has gone, hopefully soon, there's a whole lot of people who were trained to be just like them and conditioned. Thought when I was watching The Menisphere, I thought it was going to talk more about the whole kind of online pipeline of how they get like young boys from gaming to the Joe Rogan's yeah or the rotates, And so I was disappointed in next That's what I wanted to hear about, because that's what that's what I feel like a lot of us don't know what goes on behind the scenes there to train these boys to turn into misogynistic men.

1:08:56 Yeah, and I think they were closer with that on the Netflix show Adolescence. Yes, oh yeah. I think that was probably more impactful, even though as always there was men that was pushing back, of course, but you know, that's that's never going to be avoided. But I think that was probably you know, more impactful in terms of being able to just see what it was like to get to that stage for him. I would have liked to have seen a follow up where it was from the victim's point of view two, because because obviously what happens in a lot of these is that the perpetrator gets centered, and so there's there's also that to factor. In as well. We can all want different things done, you know, in different ways. And that's why I said to you, when I do my lives, there are some people that say, oh, I don't like the way he's doing it, and it might be better if he did it this way, blah blah blah. And there's no one size fits all for this.

1:09:42 But what's important is the conversations are being had and that that's the only way that we can raise that awareness and hopefully make it more widespread. A question I'd like to ask is what gives you hope when you look at the next generation. I should really be able to have something to station. Not necessarily if that's the way. Yeah, Sadly, I think I'm struggling with that. I like to think that there. I like to think that there are more videos more. I do think there's more conversations and videos that are spreading to show just how important and how big this issue is. I think that if the government on our side are starting to implement something, then things are slowly changing. I just don't think it's fast enough. I don't think I'm going to see that much of a change in my lifetime if I'm being honest, like I don't. I would like to, but I think you're probably looking at maybe two or three generations. This is all just complete guest work. By the way, this is no esternate off of statistics or anything. It's just what I'm thinking. Like you know, I'm looking at the ways that I would like to raise my two boys and what type of you know, surroundings they will have with their friends, and whether or not other families are aligning with that too, And you know how much is changing. I still think we've got a long way to go, a very long way to go. Yeah, And you know, especially with what's happening in America, you know, nothing's going to improve until that's over, and then you never know, how like you said, the people that are then being trained from that to continue however, that.

1:11:02 Looks as well. So yeah, I would like to see more men taking it more seriously. And I think that they think that trying to take it seriously looks like being this heroic individual. And I think that's the bit that again men need to try and realize, is it doesn't take long to read some information about statistics and numbers of what is happening out there. You know, there's a couple of obvious websites. I think it's like, you know, un for women ons refuge that there's there's so many that just pretty much give you the numbers, but a lot of men are very much I know, I'm not doing any of those things. Therefore I'm not part of the problem. Yeah, and you know if you're silent, and you know, was it silence is violence or something? Yeah, it's being complicit in areas. And it's also brushing off the behaviors on the rape pyramid at the bottom. You know, the cat calling, the locker room talks, the rape jokes, all of these things that men just kind of go, oh, it's no big deal, and it's like it actually is a big deal. And you know, because you're not taking it seriously, you think it's okay, but it just upholds the system even more.

1:11:58 It's like, not everybody that drinks because as an alcoholic, but there are people that are alcoholics, you know, just exhausting sometimes it. Is in you know, going back to the way things are over here. I think I had a guy say to me once like, well, Julie, what rights have you lost You haven't lost any right rates like immediately defensive as I'm trying to say, like, no, here's what's happening in other states, here's what's going on with women. Why do so many men choose to. Get defensive instead of reflective when we're talking about our experiences. Because they look at it from a rights perspective and think that the legal system is the only way in which women face oppression. They don't look at the scietal expectations and you know, the narratives that are pushed on to women through gender roles. They don't look at the ways that women are treated in workplace environments. They don't look at things like pink tax, they don't look at medical misogyny. So they think that if a law is not there to oppress women, it can't be done through any other system. Yeah, so they don't consider that. You know, I think the most obvious one, which I couldn't believe when I found was I think it was either last year or the year before where women's period pads was tested with actual blood.

1:13:05 Yeah, yeah, it's very recent that they just started doing it. They were using very water, Yeah, yep. Same on adverts. They wanted to use water on adverts because it might be that not PG or something, you know. Yeah, But then on top of that, there's still chemicals like arsenic in tampons. Yeah. So, and it's it's like we're in twenty twenty six and these things still haven't been changed, but they're just every day you know, healthcare products for the majority of women. Men don't have to worry about that, you know, right. And it feels it feels archaic when you stay say things like that. But how is it in this day and age, in twenty twenty six, when we're almost in flying fucking cars, that we can't test tampons on real blood?

1:13:48 What the fuck? Why can't we? You know? Is it gender pain gap as well, not the pay gap, the pain. Yeah yeah yeah. And then when you look at the intersections of that that you know is worse than for black and brown women, we're talking about pain, you know. So I think I think black and brown women are four times more likely to die during childbirth if I'm not mistaken one of them, their pain often gets dismissed. For me, when I was understanding misogyny, when into sectionality came my way, I was like whoa, I'm just trying to get to grips of misogyny first, what's going on? But then I realized it's. Well I had to though, right. That was the issue was that when I was when I was talking about misogyny and I was hearing about experiences from other demographics and all muginized communities, I was like, oh, okay, this goes even deeper. Yeah, and so the first door had pretty much been opened to me, not all the other hundreds.

1:14:40 Yeah. Yeah, So much of what I hear you saying is that, like the kind of solution, if you will to this ultimately is just clear, honest conversations about the source of the issue and not the symptom. When is it work? I know it's always worth. Having the hard conversation, but sometimes you just feel like you're begging your head against a wall. So when is it worth having a conversation? And one is the answer to just walk away? I think for me, I've started to identify that when some people are there to just debate or they're to troll. In my head, I'm like, I know where this is going, and I preserve energy and I'll give I'll give the same energy back which for me doesn't take a lot then because I know what I'm doing now and what my purpose is. But they'll hit a point where I'm slightly stepping into a role of maybe the sarcasm comes out a little bit because in my head I'm just like, well, if you're not going to take this seriously, I'm not going to, you know, treat you seriously on the topic and conversation because you're not here a purpose. But then there are I think you can always tell when someone is curious, so like, oh, I don't disagree, but I also don't understand.

1:15:42 Can you explain? Boom? Absolutely, thank you for being respectful. If you're respecting the platform, you can respect the platform while disagreeing. Yeah, there's no two ways about it. You know, nothing on my Life says men are horrible. I hate men. Ring on my Life says that, Well, men come up and say that, you know, all men At a moment they go, oh, you're saying all men are rape And I'm like, WHOA, I don't know where. You read that word. That's not there. Ye've just you've done a one plus one equals ten, and so you can see the triggers. You can see the triggers that come in and you're just thinking, where's that come from? Like, arguably I sort of tap into therapy though, and I'm like, let's unpack that, because something's going on there, you know. So to make that clear, a lot of people also try to blame mental health on that, and it's it's so important to acknowledge that misogyny is not a mental health issue. It's a sociological issue.

1:16:29 So when there are a lot of men and sometimes women who will say, these men need to go to therapy, and I'm like, we need to acknowledge that that will not solve misogyny. You know, going to a therapist, you will not. That's not about reducing your misogyny. That's not what therapy is for. It's a totally different issue. And so whilst I think a lot of men do need to go to therapy for other things, I do think we have to separate the two otherwise we cross over and for me, that's not where it will solve for or you know, change the mindsets of things. Where do you see yourself and what you're doing on your platform, which is you know you're doing the work of the Lord. Of course, where do you see yourself, what do you see your journey becoming or what do you want to do.

1:17:13 I'd love to be going into schools. I've worked in schools for about ten to fifteen years, a variety of you know, secondary, primary, you know. I used to work at sort of children's camps, you know, during the half term, the summer of the easter. So I've always you know, worked with children. I haven't done that for about five years due to you know, family dynamics and changes in jobs and stuff. So I want to educate teenagers on that. Not long ago I had an. Interview with the Deputy Prime Minister in the UK, you know, I asked the women in the community, what questions do you want to ask? And I got that put out as well. Wow. So I'd like to be Yeah, I'd like to be out there more because I think whils I'm sitting behind a screen. That's very easy to do, as in you know, it's just you know, turn it on, do the live, turn it off. That is pretty much what it's like. Because I don't I don't experience the misogyny.

1:17:57 So for me, when men are saying these things, I recognis that actually I can come away from it and just think all right, onto the next tomorrow. But actually there's a lot of women that have heard the misogyny and gone, wow, that was heavy. So I again acknowledge the privilege in that situation, but when it comes to you know, out in the world. I've just finished the first series of the podcast, which has got twelve episodes on it, but I would like to branch into doing series on the podcast. So for example, like I'd like to do a series on racism, a series on DV a series on mental health, because I think it'd be nice to kind of have a focus on, you know, whether it was with six different individuals talking about their experiences of what it might be to raise more awareness. So I've got things in mind, but at times it almost feels a bit icky to sort of say I'd like to have a career in unpacking men's misogyny.

1:18:45 You know, something about that just doesn't feel right. But there's plenty of misogynists with careers, so why can't you turn the tables and enough? So yeah, going into schools I think would be the priority, but I just recognize how difficult they as well. Yeah, well, you know, citizen's out there, you've got children school age. Start writing letters to your schools and asking for these things to be taught in your schools. Let's start the ball rolling chambell and start speaking to the schools and telling them that's what you want for your children. Yeah, that goes for the us too, all right, everybody. Honestly, I could talk forever. So good.

1:19:26 My brain is like spinning in a good way in really, and Rachel, I know right though, I'm still on that childhood's gone. When I go into clothing stores, now, that's all I see when I go to the children's sections. I blew my mind. So me too, because I was thinking you were going to go in the direction of oh, like pink, blue blue, you know. Then when you said the predator prey thing, Oh my god, I'd have blown with that one. Yes, it's so apparent now that you've said it, like glass shattered. Like it's ironic, isn't it? Because I think it was back when I think it was King Louis who was in. When King Louis was there, he was pink was actually a boy's color. Yeah, it was originally a male color, it was, yeah, yeah, and so were skirts and tights.

1:20:12 Do we do we know that way back, women couldn't perform on stage, so all the men were wearing all the women's clothing all the time and everything like, come on, that was all the way back. I mean things like it wasn't it was. It was nineteen seventy something, late seventies maybe early eighties where women weren't allowed to have a bank account or credit card. Yeah, without a signature from their husband or father. It feels like it should be three hundred years ago. It's not well in here in the States, Smudge, that's exactly where they want to go back to. But that's those are those are current conversations of like in the household, the man should be the other one who votes, and he votes for the house like so there's yeah, they're looking to actually go back there and there and.

1:20:54 Why conversations like this need to continue to happen and we need to get louder. Lex It's been an it's been mind blowing, eye opening, so good. Though heavy conversations is but it's it's part of it, right is the more the more awareness and more recognition. It's so necessary if people can just see those even little things differently, like the clothing and the colors. And the and the you know, and the friend zone thing like that blew my MinC. Even when someone says just guy, like, oh you've been friend zoned somehow, that's still the woman's fault, you know, It's like, how dare she not accept your advances? Well, my film is going to be thrilled that I'll be calling them out on even more stuff. Lex So, thank you, thank you so much. Like you take the time to speak with us. We really appreciate it.

1:21:38 Yes, we will add all of your socials onto our show notes and tell people where they can find you, where they can take part, where they can see you, how they can support you lives and yeah, and continue the conversation because that's what we need to do. Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me on Lovely to meet you all. You too. Pleasure by Oh my god, that was just my god. I'm just I'm so glad that he's in the space doing this. I'm just really glad I'm. Winding me to promote him. And as some of my male friends therapists. I think, yeah, right, God, please anyone, like we said on the episode, anyone is listening, like bring him into your schools and like any place you can hear him speak and check out his TikTok and all the social media things that we'll have in the show notes. Incredible.

1:22:24 He just said he's got an incredible way about him of dismantling it in a way that it's clearly effective. So thank you Lex so much, so much spending some time with us. Keep the conversation going. Hell yeah we are, and thanks again for Peaches and he's peaching it real segment. What a great segment that was today as well, Peaching. We have been blessed today with some fucking amazing conversations, haven't. We, Yes, with a couple of good men who are doing great work. So thank you both Lex and Peaching. Yes, thank you so nice. Clit uSens for listening to another episode of Quincast. We hope you got a lot out of this and are ready to go continue to fight the good fight. We'll be back again with another great episode. But in the meantime, please comment, share all the things, email us your topic ideas Quinncast podcast at gmail dot com. We'd love to hear from you and peach it real. This has ben Casa, your voice matters.

1:23:23 This has been Jewles. Go put those lips to good use, and. This has been smuch. Keep one king,