S4 E58: Certified Sex Therapist Heather Shannon

0:00 Hey, this is Kazza. This is Jules. And this is Smudge. You're listening to Quincast, where we have chats about audio erotica and empowerment through desire. And we take you behind the scenes with the pros shaping the industry. Settle in. Things are about to get spicy and uncensored. Today we're talking about body confidence in the bedroom. The lighting's bad. The angle's bad. Did they just look at that part of me? Is my stomach doing a thing right now? It's such a universal experience and nobody talks about it because it feels embarrassing to admit you're more worried about how you look than actually being present with another person.

0:54 And it's not just a new relationship thing either. This can show up years into a marriage, after having a kid, after your body changes for any reason, or honestly, just out of nowhere on a random Tuesday. So we wanted to actually dig into why this happens and what, if anything, you can do about it in the moment. Not just love yourself, Instagram caption advice, but actual usable stuff. Which is why we brought in an expert instead of just blabbing about our own baggage. Heather Shannon is a certified sex therapist and host of the top 1% podcast, Sex for Couples. She's been quoted everywhere from Cosmo to Glamour to Hustler, and today she joins us on QuinnCast to dig deep into something almost everyone struggles with at some point, feeling good in your body when someone else is looking at it.

1:41 This is Body Confidence in the Bedroom. Welcome welcome heather welcome so fun i love being here already yay oh so glad welcome thank you yeah this is a great topic and yeah i love that you guys are just like no. Filter and we're gonna we're gonna figure this stuff out and see if we can help people have some better sex and better confidence. Absolutely hell to the yes Before we get into the questions, I thought it would be helpful. We had sent a call out to our community to ask them, like, what are their body confidence issues in the bedroom? Just to kind of get an idea. You probably won't be surprised that they're pretty similar. So this one says, my tummy. This person says, I fear he won't be able to get hard because I'm too fat.

2:28 Okay. It used to be pretty much everything, my body, my pleasure, et cetera. Yep. But then in terms of audio erotica, talking about how the audios have slowly built their confidence, because there's a lot of curve appreciation and body appreciation audios in the audio erotica community. I struggle with showing my stomach and my breasts because I'm very self-conscious about them. My stomach is an area I feel insecure about, and I'm also insecure about my breasts because they sag quite a lot. My tummy being overweight has killed my confidence. Lots of fat and loose skin. I have a stoma bag, which fits... which sits front and center, not very sexy, but hey, I'm alive. Self-confidence, I'm self-confident about the angle he sees when I'm on top, how I look when I'm riding and that my body's on full display. And I'm fat and I don't usually mind that, but my big butt when from behind, that's a hangup I find difficult to let go of.

3:24 Okay. So those are some, just some Input from the clitizens, as we call our community. Oh, my God. That's so cute. The clitizens. I love it. Well, you are an honorary member of the clitizens. Yes. That's right. I accept. I'm excited to join. Yeah. Welcome to the clitizen family. Oh, my God. So what does body confidence in the bedroom actually mean to you, like, I guess, clinically? Like, is it about how someone looks, how they feel in their body or something else? Yeah. I know I'm technically a clinician. I'm not very clinical. Love it. Yes. But so I really just think like I hear that list of like what people wrote in and I was just like. I feel kind of sad and angry about it because there's just, there's so many messages about like what our body should be, you know, and I've gone through chronic health issues. I'm still in the middle of some of that. I would just spent a weekend with family and a well-meaning relative was like, you know, you've been getting bigger the last, you know, over the course of the last 10 years. And I was like, okay, we're going to have a discussion about some stuff. Boundaries.

4:42 Family is a chronic health issue. Yeah. And it's like, I know they're coming from a place of love, but it's like, it takes, I think when you're working on your own body image, like not only do you have to work on your own thoughts, but you have to work on like, let other people's thoughts be theirs and not take that on. And so like, I'm grateful that I'm in a place now where like, did that bother me? Yes. But like, am I over attaching to it? Am I thinking like, Oh, my body's unacceptable? No. And that's, and that's really nice. Um, so I think like podcasts like this, the fact that there's a lot of body positivity within the sexual, uh, you know, wellness community and erotic audio community is very cool, but I do think we have to get more intentional and, about the type of media we consume you know like like for me my weight has gone up and down over the years and you know health issues have popped up and stuff and what's been really helpful is just realizing how realizing how stupid this is it's just stupid like that's kind of how I feel I'm like I'm just gonna opt out of this way of thinking because it's it's only harmful and Nothing about it is helpful. It only reduces pleasure, reduces connection, makes us feel horrible about ourselves and makes us more isolated and lonely.

6:00 I mean, we heard those those issues that some of our clitizens were talking about. Yeah. What would over your years of experience, what would you say is the most common body confidence issue? You know, has it is it always been that way? Has it changed over the last few years due to, like you said, social media or aging population, etc. It's not changing. I mean, what I, cause I've been in practice for 20 years. You know what I mean? Like I would say maybe what's changing is men are a little bit more self-conscious now too. It's like, so now we're just bringing more people into the fold to feel shitty about themselves. You know, I think more and more men are having like hair transplants or like worrying about that and like, you know, worrying about their weight and.

6:49 So I think there's that. But yeah, it's pretty much everyone should look young regardless of how old you are. Everyone should be thin. No one should have a stoma bag or any other like health issues that ever interfere with their health. And then then you can feel sexy. So it's like we put all these ridiculous conditions on like, you know, I can feel sexy if. 10 different criteria have been met. And I'm just, that's where I'm just like, I just can't, I just can't subscribe to that. I think it's crazy making, but at the same time we live in this society. Right. And so like we're bombarded by these ideas. My best friend has had, you know, she's very into Botox. She has breast implants. There's like zero judgment, but we're bombarded with it, with it's like, okay, you should, you know, have some laser treatment done to your skin. You should whiten your teeth. You should get rid of your forehead wrinkles with Botox. You should lose weight and this and that. I think what I've learned just kind of like through being in sex positive spaces is that so many types of bodies can be erotic, you know? And like, to me, like that's so much more expansive. It's so much more exciting. It doesn't have to be ableist. I think there is a lot of like ableist things you know, the person who mentioned the stoma bag, I'm really appreciative they wrote in because it could be like, okay, well, if you're in a wheelchair, if you have a disability, if you, for me, I have a lot of digestive and histamine issues and it's not always a visible illness that I'm dealing with. There can be a fear of like bringing our whole selves to the table. Really, that's what's happening with body image.

8:21 There's a fear of bringing our whole self to the table. But like, that's what intimacy, that's why it's vulnerable. That's what makes it intimate. Mm-hmm. You know? The fear of bringing your whole self to the table, like, what do you think is, like, the root cause of that? I mean, there's a million different things, right? But I know you also work in internal family systems, so I wonder if that's a piece. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, Kazi. You totally did your research. Love it. I think that, like, we can't have gotten to this point, assuming everyone's an adult listening to this, right? We can't have gotten to this point of adulthood in our lives without someone telling us something about us should be different, right? Mm-hmm. You should, you know... It can even be like, you should pay better attention. You should dress a certain way. You should be thinner. Your hair should be different than it is. I liked your hair.

9:06 So it's like, we just get all these outside opinions constantly. And then what happens is we kind of internalize that and not, not to be like dramatic. And I'm not saying this is like a big T life threatening trauma, but like, I do think it's trauma in the sense that maybe people's comments have stopped. Maybe they're not have happening in this moment, but we've internalized them. so now we have a part inside of us that's like oh you know your stomach is like a little bit bigger than it used to be or you kind of have like a belly or you know and we make it mean things so it could be like oh well the size of the belly determines like if it's an okay belly or if it's an apron belly or if it if there's loose skin in the belly it's it's like we can really like micro like analyze and fixate on these little things it could be like oh, well, now you have new stretch marks or cellulite because you had a baby or you have a new wrinkle. And it's just easy to like pick ourselves apart. So I think that the route to feeling better in your body, there's a lot of them. One pathway I think is seeing yourself more through your partner's eyes, you know? So whether, regardless of the gender of who you're having sex with, they probably think you're hot. They're probably not going to have sex with you if they're not into several things about you. And if they're smart, they're not fixating on your imperfections. So I think when we can start seeing ourselves that way and realize like, Oh, this person's like actually excited about me or they're, complimenting me I had I had an ex-boyfriend who complimented my like lower belly

10:38 like the part that I was sort of like least secure this is a long time ago probably 15 years ago but I was like oh what's your favorite part of my body or somehow that topic came up and he's like I would actually say like right below your belly button and I was like really or almost like the line separating like the pubic area from the belly he's like I just think it's cute and it's very like feminine oh I was like oh my gosh what an interesting way to view that that had never occurred to me So like but it allowed me to like adopt his lens a little bit and realize like he's being genuine. And I think I've also had to be disciplined and like I'm never going to say to a sexual part. I'm never going to pick myself apart to a sexual partner. I'm never going to be like, oh, well, you know, my butt doesn't look good from this angle or my boobs are droopy because I just feel like I'm.

11:24 Feeding the narrative. And I actually had a client at one point who his girlfriend had gained like 20, 30 pounds or something. And he was like, she still looks good, like whatever. But then she kept picking herself apart and it was affecting him where he was almost like seeing through her lens because she's like, here's my really shitty lens on how I look. And he was like, oh, I am starting to see that because you've said it about a thousand times now. Uh-huh. Okay. So I thought that was interesting, too. Yeah. That is interesting. And, you know, I want to bring it back a little bit, too. I'm thinking about kind of what you said about social media and kind of comparison culture. Oh, man. I feel like it's kind of a huge thing. And, I mean, I feel like the rise of social media since, what, 2008 has really stemmed because, you know, I see women now online and most of what pops up on my For You page has to do with eroticism and sex.

12:15 And things will pop up now that I didn't even know was something we compared about each other until about three years ago. Example, I did not know there were so many people talking about how women have different types of vaginas. And some people are like, oh, yours looks like this. I didn't know that. Wait, is that weird? Is mine okay? And that actually made a lot of people become insecure when they didn't even know they had something to be insecure about. I know. Thank you for bringing that up because– I'm like, can I find a gynecologist who isn't doing like labiaplasties on people? You know, I think like even when we go to the doctor and I from their standpoint, it's like that's probably where the money is.

12:57 All the cosmetic stuff, all the doctors are doing it now, you know, but I don't want to go there and be bombarded with. oh, well, you could tighten things up a bit there in the vagina area. Or we could just, you know, trim this labia a little bit. It'll be real cute. And I'm just like, what's wrong with my current labia? You know what I mean? Like, my labia's fine. And so is everyone else's. But where do they. Get the ideal from? I'd love to know where the. Ideal of a vagina is. Yeah, but I've watched my percentage of porn and they're all different still. I mean, the majority of them may well be shaved, but they all look different. Different sized lips, plump, thin, barely existent, you know, all of that. Clitorises, the hoods, the everything, the protruded. It's all different. So who comes up with the ideal or are we making up the ideal in our head just to put ourselves down?

13:50 I mean, from what I've heard, I don't know if people have kind of gotten this idea or not, was that porn was portraying more of like the clamshell, like labia, where it's kind of like the inner lips are shorter, the outer lips are longer, nothing's protruding. And here's the thing that I've realized about sex in general. It's like humans are uncomfortable to some degree with our like animalistic side. And so we're kind of like, we're going to just be like neat and tidy and prim and proper about our sex. And we're not going to be like unkempt or like wild. It's like, it's like this weird thing where I'm just like, why? Like, why are we being so weird about that? Like, let's be wild and let's like let ourselves do that. But I think that goes back to the part stuff that Kaza had mentioned. There's just so many like invisible rules about like how we're supposed to be. And when we go into sex being like, okay, like kissing is okay. And my vagina can look like this and that's okay. But Anything that deviates from like, you know, here's what is socially acceptable in terms of sex acts. Here is what is acceptable in terms of my body. That's it. We just like, we start from this like narrowly defined, limited place.

15:00 Yeah. I find that like, because I've done, I've been in therapy, I've done IFS. Oh, nice. I think like for me, as far as body confidence goes, when I was young, I won't, I'll use the I place. When I was young, as a child, I was. I'm always looking for ways to get mom and dad to love me, right? Because that's what children do. You just look at like, you're watching their behavior. And so if I see mom who is, you know, slender and like, you know, attractive and all this stuff, grab a little bit of her belly and go, oh my God, I got to get rid of this fat thing. As a little girl, I'm like, oh, okay. So to be good enough for mom to love me, I have to not have one of those. Right. Right. And so then that part's formed where it's like, oh, that, so I start to get the definition of what's acceptable and, appearance wise, or even if she makes comments like, it doesn't matter how you look, I'm worried about your health. Well, the seeds are already planted. So it doesn't matter how nicely you package the wording. It's going to translate into you're fat and worthless.

15:56 Yeah, exactly. Right. Yep. So that's what we're bringing to sex is like all this baggage. And so, you know, when people do the therapy and they know their parts and they can even talk to their partner about like, I have a part that feels this way and the partner can be, you know, hopefully sensitive and gracious about that. Not to defend men at all. I'd like to just walk back a little bit, Heather, when you were talking about how porn was advertising the clamshell vagina. Yeah. That's porn. That's advertising. That's a marketing thing. Right, right. In real life, I don't think I've ever had a male friend, partner, whatever, talk to me about what a vagina should look like.

16:38 Correct. Like 100%. Me, never. Nor have I ever had a male client talk about his partner's genitals in any sort of negative way. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. We put it on ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. They don't care. But most of my male friends have said, by the time we're naked, doesn't matter. I want to be there. That's why I'm naked. And I think that's a great point because it's the person. There's so many layers to this. We're objectifying ourself, right? We don't want to be reduced to one aspect of who we are. But like that's what's happening when we're like, I need to have a clamshell vagina. All right. Which is actually the vulva, not the vagina. But, you know, we say that or like I need to be trimmed.

17:20 But you're right. It's like the person's there because of the total package, not because of like one little feature. I mean, it's just projection, right? We're just like we project our insecurities onto our partner. To your point, Smudge, when they're in the midst of it, it's like they're not thinking, oh, it's not a clamshell. I'm out. They're just happy to be there. They're just happy to be there. Literally never. They're like, no, actually, I want to be in. I don't care what it is, but I want to be in. I mean, I lived through the, you know, the early part of the 90s when bleaching your arsehole was the trend. Right. And I used. Actual bleach because I didn't know what they were talking about. So I just used actual bleach. Oh, no. Don't do that. Yeah. Don't do that. You did that? Yeah, because.

18:01 nobody was talking about it everyone was talking about it. But nobody spoke about it exactly because this is it's like this weird shameful secret thing and that's why it's so important that you guys have this podcast so people can be like no you can actually just talk about these things and then not accidentally harm your body but when no one talks about it and exists in the shadows that's what happens. That's such a good point so much i never even thought of that but you're like yeah like what you're like how would you know who how would you know if someone just says like oh bleach your asshole you're You did. You go under the sink and you get your mum's bleach and you get some cotton wool buds and you bleach your own arsehole until it burns. Until it burns like a motherfucker. And then you still go, well, that must be what everybody goes through because it wasn't, there wasn't the social media back then.

18:43 It wasn't like it was in. I mean, it may have been in Vogue or Glamour or something like back in the day, but I didn't get those magazines. I just heard about it from a friend, you know, a friend of a friend. And I looked at my arsehole and I was like, well, this is a little bit dark. So, but I'm, I'm naturally brown, not blonde. So I was like, right. That must be unacceptable. And that's what I'm being told. Yeah. Unacceptable. That's the word must be unacceptable. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, but even that's much like the one you took it one step further and went. well, it burned and it was uncomfortable, but this must be what everyone goes through because this is what you're supposed to do. God, so much of it comes back to just fucking talk about it. Yes.

19:25 Were you guys taught that beauty is supposed to be painful? Because my mom said that to me when I was young. Beauty is pain. Beauty is pain. Which is ridiculous. It's so funny. I heard that expression all the time, but I never stopped and thought, oh, it's painful to be beautiful. I'm like, wait a minute. Hang on. What if we're already beautiful and we're missing it the whole time? Have you guys had that experience where- You look back at a picture of yourself and you're like, oh my God, I was so beautiful. And then you're like, but I didn't feel beautiful. I was too busy worrying about everything that was wrong with my body. It's so true. Yes. It never ends. It never ends. Which is why people like you, Heather, are so important. Yeah. But you guys, too. We're all doing it. We're doing the work.

20:07 Yeah, I look I look at pictures of myself like from college or whatever when I thought I was just like the most ginormous, hideous creature. And I'm like, what I wouldn't give to be that size. Right. But it's so subjective. I know, but we have to do it now. So it's like. We have to realize that like 10 years from now or whatever, we might look back and be like, I was, you know, beautiful. I was great looking. Like, what was my, why did I think I wasn't? You know, it's like, there's like an absurdity to it. If everyone goes around thinking they're attractive, guess what? Everyone's more confident. People are approaching each other more. People are feeling happier in their own skin. They're having sex. They're more comfortable getting naked. It's just like only good things happen.

20:49 Which then brings me to like, at least here in the States, like the capitalist society, it's very profitable to make us feel ugly and fat. So profitable. Imagine, I mean, it's a multi-billion dollar industry. Right. You know what? I'll take it a step further there, Kazza, because my FYP, I'm not even kidding, every four videos, so I have small boobs. I'm part of the itty bitty titty committee. So I'm like a big A. And don't get me wrong, now I'm like, you know, I still get a little self-conscious sometimes because they're smaller and things, but I get ads every few minutes for like, do you have small chest size? What? Make them look, and I'm like, fuck, damn it. Oh, I hate that. Well, because that's what's so stupid, like all of our devices like listening to us, right? So it's like, oh yeah. So like Jules, you can make like just a comment that I'm part of the individuality committee and then all of a sudden your fucking FYP is filled with that shit.

21:35 So heather what's the difference then between what is body confidence issue that you just shaky every now and again yeah the body confidence that's like massively taking a hit like postpartum or illness or weight change etc what's what's the major difference between those two um i. Would say it's probably how much brain space it's taking up for you So if it's kind of like you generally go around feeling like a pretty cute person, you know, people find you attractive, but you know, every once in a while you're like, Oh, I'll get a little gray hair coming in or like, Oh, I think I could use like a little wardrobe update. That's probably not like hugely negatively impacting your life at that point. Like I realized recently, I think some of my health issues have limited me more in feeling attractive where I'm like, Oh, I feel super bloated all the time. Or I'm like dealing with all this digestive stuff or I'm getting these like debilitating headaches and There can be some of those thoughts of, you know, no one's going to want to deal with this or I have food sensitivities, whatever it is.

22:35 So I think a lot of times when we have, you know, people might have chronic fatigue. People might have an autoimmune disease. People might have a stoma bag. People might have need to walk with assistance or be in a wheelchair. And it's like there's a lot of reconceptualizing. You mentioned pregnancy. That's a really common example. Menopause, you know, is another one or perimenopause. where it can kind of, there can just be thoughts that go with it. Like, well, I'm all washed up or, well, my reproductive years are over or like, you know, my vagina will never be the same after having a child. You know, whatever. It's like, so it's our thoughts that have the power. So what we want to do there is kind of separate, like there's the circumstance, right? You had a child, you are in perimenopause, you are in a wheelchair, whatever. So there's a fact, right? There's a fact, but then there's how we think about that fact. I'm really glad to see more people who are disabled doing more like sexual content on Instagram and stuff. And it's just such a good example of like, it's about the confidence, you know, it's about the aura. It's about like what you're bringing to the table and, As a whole person and not just, again, one aspect of who you are. I think that's the difference. Like, are you basically feeling good? You feel like you are worthy and can be intimate with someone? Or are you ruminating and worrying about this and like maybe taking yourself out of the game? You know, whether you're single or whether you're married for 20 years, are you just sort of opting out of sexuality because you've decided you're not adequate?

24:08 Yeah. Yeah. One question I'd like to ask you, Heather, do you think that the orgasm gap has as much to do with men not giving us the time to have an orgasm? Or our inability because of our body confidence issues to relax enough to have an orgasm? I'm going to say yes. There you go. Yes. I would also add a lot of women don't know what they want. And I think there's sometimes discomfort. Women have more discomfort over masturbating than men do because of how we've been socialized. And so there's often like, like I'll often work with a husband and wife, let's say the husband will be like, I'll do anything. Just tell me what to do. I want you to feel pleasure.

24:49 I want you to have a great time. Cause men are often like, I want sex, but they're kind of like, but I want her to be into it. Or like I get off on her getting off, you know? And so they, they want that they're willing to put into work. And sometimes the woman's like, well, I don't know. It's not that you're doing anything wrong. Or I think there's sometimes a resistance to exploring her own body to touching her own genitals. I think there's a lot of like kind of ick associated with female genitals sometimes, whether it's, ew, you're getting a period, ew, blood, gross. Like, oh, does it smell weird down there? Or, you know, so it's like that all can play into it too. Honestly, it's a wonder any of us are feeling good about ourselves. Ever leave the house. Yeah.

25:30 I think about every time somebody makes a fish joke, it comes back to close. Your legs, lady. Like what? Fuck. Like we grew up with that shit. I know. So it's like, it's, yeah. So I think there's a lot of things working kind of against us, but I very much think it's possible to just, again, my mental thing is just like unsubscribe. Like I just don't subscribe to that. It's not, is it helpful to me? No. Okay. Unsubscribe. And then actively seeking out stuff like this, these types of conversations. I also think seeing normal bodies, again, porn is entertainment. Right. It's just a sexual movie. So it's like when you're walking, watching a movie, it's like someone's going to have their hair and makeup done. There's great lighting. There's there's just like, you know, they've selected people who are going to, you know, be have mass appeal or whatever. But I don't think there's a person out there that doesn't have a bunch of people who'd want to have sex with them. So I think I think we can all I think we can all walk around with a lot more confidence. You know, like I grew up feeling like I had to be thin and. And women were kind of supposed to be more passive and like the dating and sex process. And, you know, men would just approach you if you're pretty and thin. And, you know, I'm not thin. And that's working out fine. And I think what I've realized is, oh, I've dated equally good looking guys, whether I'm weighing 200 pounds or 130 pounds. It's all in my head. And so that's what I've realized. I'm like, when I was telling myself limiting thoughts, it affected how I showed up.

26:55 And that was true. And when I stopped telling myself those limiting thoughts, that was also true, you know, and then I showed up differently and in a way that worked better. So I was like, how interesting, you know, the mind is a powerful thing. It is. And we can, I try to like challenge the stories in my head. Like when I make up a story, I'm like, is it true? Is this absolutely true? Yes. I just had a conversation with my wife two days ago, maybe. Okay. This may or may not stay in the podcast, depending on her approval. But we had a conversation the other day about like just intimacy in general. And I was bringing to the table of like, I don't feel attracted. Menopause, right? Like weight has completely shifted in the body and you mentally don't feel like the same person anymore. It's like someone came and replaced you with somebody else mentally and physically.

27:44 And so I'm talking to her about how you know, like you like doing what you said you shouldn't do, which is like, I'm sure you probably don't find me attractive anymore. Keep in mind, she's the same age. And so she's similar stage of life. And I said, I just don't think you have as much interest in this anymore. And so I make it about me. I'm like, is it about me? And then she goes in to tell me she had, she was diagnosed with breast cancer a couple of years ago and had a double mastectomy. And she said, I was someone who never really identified my womanhood with breasts, but not having them has impacted me. Yeah. You know? So I'm coming to the table thinking it's all because she doesn't find me attractive anymore. And she's coming to the table going, no, it's because I'm just digesting now what happened to me two years ago. So I think like so much of it is like, if we can just talk to each other and even if you're not partnered up, like talk to your friends about the stories we all tell ourselves and check them. Like, are they even true?

28:39 You know? I also want to clarify, like, I think what you did is wonderful in that example. I would say like, You don't want to just be like constantly complaining about your body, but if you're actually sitting with something that's affecting you, I think that's great to share with your partner and like an actual conversation about it, you know? And it sounds like it was helpful and you got a little bit more of an accurate lens after that. Well, that's what's so cool. I think with communication is like nothing, literally nothing physically on my body changed after that conversation, but we immediately felt connected and closer. Exactly. Exactly. And felt more intimate as far as like just spending more time together. So it's like just checking those stories and having those conversations. So I guess to that point, Heather, like what are like two or three kind of reframes when someone's spiraling down that body confidence struggle that they can do to pull themselves out of it?

29:32 Sometimes I think it's helpful to just like, like anxiety I think of is almost like a horse with blinders. Like you've really narrowed your whole world. into like this hyper fixation of what's wrong. And anything that's going to take the blinders off is helpful. So whether you're just like literally go on a walk and like, you're like, Oh, look, there's a whole world out here. There's all these other people and dogs and trees and whatever that can be helpful. Very simple. I also think it could be just like noticing other bodies out in the world and noticing that like, oh, I don't think they're terrible for having an older body. I don't think they're terrible for having a fatter body. I don't think they're terrible for having a body that's shaped differently than some other ones. We can be real assholes to ourselves. So sometimes realizing like, oh, I'm not being as much of an asshole to other people. Maybe I should be nice to myself too. Yeah.

30:24 Novel concept. Wild. I know it is wild. I also think social media, man, like we've said it, but it's like, be ruthless when you're going through your social media. Yeah. If anything makes you feel bad about yourself, unfollow that account. Good idea. You know, whether even if it's like a body positivity, sometimes it could be like it is a body positive account, but you're comparing yourself to that person's body still and you're finding yourself lacking. So it is not affecting you in the desired way. So I think noticing that, like notice how you're actually being affected. Or it could be like, oh, it's a fitness account and I'm learning good form on my weightlifting. But it could be like, yeah, but every time you look at it, you're triggered because they have like zero body fat. So unfollowing stuff that doesn't work for you, even like TV, you know, I think actively seeking out stuff that does make you feel good. A couple of things I've done, I don't know how practical this is for people, but I've gone to a Korean spa where everyone's naked. and you see you see like normal people in all body types because You know, no one's trying to like look pretty for each other in like the steam room or the hot tub. And then I also like FetLife. I don't know if you guys talk about that, but it's, you know, FetLife is kind of the kinky Facebook. Yes, you'll see people who are professionals, but you'll see a lot of appreciation for different body types.

31:47 And you'll see a lot of people even who like, I wasn't sure if I should post this or I wasn't feeling that confident, but I'm trying to push myself to post anyways. And then people will be like, oh, my God, sexy as fuck. So glad you posted or whatever. And you're like, oh, OK. So I think like seeing that other people are on that journey to seeing that somebody might have some stretch marks or some saggy skin or some scars or be larger or be less curvy or be whatever. And they've got a whole page of fans, you know, commenting on how hot they are. So like that was a good experience for me too, to see that. So I kind of think people just need to get out there. Like when you're feeling shitty, it's because you've got your blinders on. So whatever that looks like for you, take the blinders off, see the world around you and realize that your body is not perfect, but neither is anyone else's and it will never be perfect. And you have to make peace with that.

32:42 Just my own personal story. I lost a lot of weight and I realized that I got way more sex. when I was 280 pounds. Oh my gosh. So interesting. Then I did when I was 180 pounds solely because it's how I walked in the world. And I portrayed myself because at 280 pounds, I knew I was fat. I knew I was big. I accepted it. And I didn't realize until I lost the weight, how much I accepted being big. And I was okay with it because I, It didn't bother me. It just didn't bother me. Whereas when I lost the weight, I am so much more paranoid now about gaining weight. I've gained a couple of stone in the last year. And I have got so much less confidence in myself now being even 80 pounds lighter than I was than I was when I was 20 stone.

33:36 Isn't it just fascinating? Yeah. I mean, talk about it being mindset. Yeah. Yeah. That was my experience too. It's like the weight was... so much less of the issue than I had been led to believe. Yeah. I mean, Smudge has like some really wild stories in her life. We'll just say that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I would think that sometimes, Smudgy, honestly, like when you would tell stories about like, you know, your sexcapades or whatever. And I would think to myself, God, she talks about how she was overweight and, you know, what she weighed and the sexcapades that she would evolve. And it challenges my thinking because I'm like, oh, I just assumed that that couldn't possibly happen. Right. When you're heavy. But like you said, you just you walked with this confidence. That's so interesting that you walked with more confidence then than you do now. That's fascinating to me.

34:23 Because I perfectly had accepted my body, but I didn't. I mean, I knew I was confident. I knew I was perfectly happy in my own skin, but I didn't realize just how much I was. Until I lost the weight and realized I am so much worse. Now I've lost the weight. For me, I've typically been naturally thin. But a couple of years ago, I was... I say anything on this pod. So I was addicted to Adderall very, very badly. And I'm 5'4. And I was like 110 pounds. But now, I'm healthy now. And I'm like 145. Which just works perfectly for my height and everything. But I didn't realize it at the time. I was self-conscious about being... too thin, but now people are just like, Julie, you look great now, like compared to how you looked before. Whereas I thought I, you grew up where it was like, you know, teeny culture, like we've been talking about. So even I was surprised when people were like, Julie, you didn't look well before.

35:16 And even people saying that though, gave me more confidence being like, oh my God, now that I'm actually like caring about my body and things like that. Like it did. Yeah. That helped with the confidence too. That's amazing. Yeah, that's a whole other thing, right? Like when you're 110, because the ideal is to always be as skinny as possible. Yeah. Yeah, that's how I grew up. But then you were and it was like, no, that wasn't ideal. No, people are like, you look sick. Like you look sickly. Yeah. And now people are like, you look healthy. I'm like, oh my God, thank you. There was the whole fad about size zero. I mean, it even came out of the UK and we don't have a size zero over here, by the way. Okay. It's a six. You know, it's called a six over here, but we took up the mantle and it was in every fucking magazine, every billboard, size zero. And even when you go on the, you know, you see the, what's those weight loss TV shows?

36:05 Like the biggest, no, the biggest loser. What's the advert? It's somebody with a really tight belt around a really thin waist, right? So once again, they're not telling you to be healthy. They're telling you to be thin. Yes. Yes. That's my issue as well. Yes. When my relative recently commented, they weren't saying I'm worried about your health. They're like, you've gotten a lot bigger. And then I think I think he tried to say something about how it maybe affected my dating life or career. Oh, I was like, oh, we're just going to stop that right here. Yeah, we are. I'm like, things are going better than ever at the exact weight and size that I currently am. Jesus. Oh, my God.

36:46 God, I would have had to have handed them a tissue because their nose would have been bleeding. Yeah. I think I just am like, the thing is with all the other people, they're also a product of the society. Those are the messages they've received also. Yeah. So I just don't really take it that personally anymore, which, again, I'm grateful for and I've done a lot of work to get to that point. Mm-hmm. I'm glad I don't live under those beliefs anymore. I'm glad I'm not limiting myself. And I think that's what we have. I think ultimately that's the solution, right? Because I mean, I can remember like early college days for me. So many, many years ago, seeing lectures on advertisements and how women are portrayed in advertising and how the messages that were sent and how we need to change them. And I'm like, okay. And so now, 30 years later, it's the exact same message.

37:33 Nothing has changed. If anything, they've gotten worse. I mean, Smudge over here, now it's a double zero. I can't. I can't. So it's like even worse. And so it has to, and this speaks to the work you do, Heather, like it has to come from within. Like our healing has to come from within. We can't rely on advertising changing. We can't rely on the patriarchy being dismantled. Oh, God, no. I've stopped long time, probably 20 years. I have not participated in conversations about diet and weight loss. So I think that was another thing that really helped me because it would be an easy thing to just chit chat about with friends. And so now if a friend wants to lose weight, I'm like, okay, cool. I hope that works out.

38:14 Yeah. I just kind of don't really engage much. I don't really comment on people's weights anymore because I'm like, I think the point I got to in like my recent experience that I mentioned, like I was like, I certainly hope that my size is not the most interesting thing about me. Like if it is, I'm doing something wrong. Oh, my God. That's so good. Yeah. If the fact that one of my boobs is bigger than the other is the biggest part of the conversation, I need to have a different friend circle. Exactly. I mean, I'm still, I'm still friends with Smudge, even though she lost her labia minora. Yeah. Yeah. It's gone. Yeah. You know, you talk about those doctors that do, you know, the labia operations. Do you think they have any spares?

38:57 Just some extra labia laying around? Just going, you know, laying around because yeah. That'd be hilarious. I'm imagining like a labia closet. Yeah. In a jar. But then I'm laughing about it, but I'm not being funny. But if a guy was going down on me, I'm sure the first thing he wasn't going to say was, where's your fucking labium and oregon? No. He's just happy to be down there. Yeah. You got to work on his dirty talk if that's the case. So talking about partners, Kazza just mentioned what a great conversation she had with her wife. Yeah. Yes. And I know that Jules has had some great conversations with Matt. Yes. So what is it that partners do get wrong when they're trying to reassure somebody about their body? What are the things that backfire? What's the no-nos? What's the, you know?

39:43 I mean, I'm imagining someone saying like, Oh, I've just gained some weight. And the partner's like, don't worry, you'll lose it. You know, like if it was something like that, like it could accidentally reinforce, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you don't want to accidentally reinforce the idea that like you are only acceptable if. xyz changes okay i think just reminding your partner that like you see them as a whole person you know like it's like you're not just a cup size or a bubble butt or a stretch mark or a scar you know it's like you're a whole person attraction does change things change over the years body changes and that can affect how much a partner is attracted and so often partners are kind of like should i not say something Like if I'm not attracted, because I think we've also gotten to the point in society where it's like, you're not supposed to comment on someone's weight or body. But I guess I will say if that's the truth, I kind of think you do need to say it because it's the truth.

40:42 And to me, honesty is a big part of intimacy. And then you have to go from there because if you're just like, hey, you know, you've gained. a hundred pounds and I'm not as attracted to you anymore. I love you. Usually the partner's like, I love them just as much. The companionship is so wonderful. I'm just not feeling the attraction I want to feel. And I'm not sure what to do about it. And I don't want to blame you. And I don't want you to have to like change your body, but like, this is the truth of where I'm at. I think, I think partners need to kind of be able to be honest and have those conversations that are really hard. And I guess if they're really hard, like maybe, do them with a therapist. For sure. Like, I do think that would be a good one to do, you know, with a therapist, especially, I mean, it depends on the people, but like, if you're going to take it personally, if you already are shaming your own body, if you're already really hard on yourself, for sure. Like, get some support with that.

41:29 We actually had one question that someone submitted when we asked for their input that is along this topic. So this person wrote in and said, my partner keeps making small dick jokes about himself and I never know how to respond. he's an average-ish dude but i don't want to sound fake and just say um it's amazing it seems odd to me so how can i help my partner's confidence. Again yeah that is good i would be honest i would be like you have a perfectly normal healthy penis yeah so you don't have to say it's huge if it's not huge but you can also be like babe i think you're like a little bit delusional that like you're talking like you have a tiny penis and you just like don't yeah. I love your penis like right right so i mean like give it a kiss Right.

42:10 It sounds like there's some dysmorphia there. So, I mean, that I think that could also be some feedback, you know, like, hey, it seems like you're not actually perceiving this accurately. And I know it's bothering you. Like, I'm happy with your penis. I love it. But I know I can't convince you because that's the thing. Right. We can't convince someone to feel differently about their body than they do. So we can say we can give it all the compliments. We can kind of accurately reflect back like our experience of the penis or the pussy or the whatever it is. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But that's not necessary. I would say in most cases that doesn't change how the person feels. So if it persists, I would say that like, you know, that might just be some work they need to do with a therapist.

42:53 Yeah. I was just thinking about this too with partners. I've had like friends come up to me and say like, when my partner will say, you know, if I say something like, maybe they're not like, oh, I'm gaining weight, but something like, I just don't feel as pretty as I used to. And they're saying like, they're looking, almost looking for reassurance, but not in like a. Do you know what I mean? Not in like a, oh, babe, you're fine. Right, right, right, right. Do you know what I mean? So I don't know if there's a different way for partners to approach that instead of just being like, oh, you're great, honey. Because I've had people be like, that didn't help me at all. Like, were they even listening? I don't know. Is there like a different way to kind of reassure without sounding like you're. Yeah, reassuring is interesting because like if you find your partner attractive, yes, reassure them. You know, but I would even be proactive, like offer compliments, not just when it comes up, not just when they're complaining. That's probably going to go a bit further. I think what you use the word feeling, Julie, and I think that's important because what I've learned through working with people on body image, you know, over 20 years is it has nothing to do with what they look like. So I think if we can understand that, like body image has nothing to do with your actual body. It's so weird. But it really doesn't because I'm like, I'll, you know, have older people who don't fit the norm or fatter people who whatever don't fit the societal standard feel great. And then I'll have someone who kind of looks just like what you think everyone wants to look like feel horrible. And you'll hear about supermodels feeling bad about their body or

44:24 being like, oh, well, it's airbrushed or, oh, well, it's whatever, kind of making excuses and stuff. I think if we can separate that– because sometimes what can happen is we invalidate an accident where somebody might be pretty close to the societal ideals looks-wise, but they're not feeling good about themselves. And we're like, oh, but you're perfect and you're thin and you have perky boobs and you have whatever. And the person is like– Yep. Okay. I guess I just can't talk to you about this. Right. Like that's not how I feel. Yeah. Like I guess it's bad. It's wrong for me to feel this way. Yeah. Yeah. I don't have a right to. Yeah. I would say like my number one communication tip in general, whether it's body image or something else is like first really try to understand very deeply before responding. So I think the more we can stay in curiosity and And try to understand our partner. The more they're going to feel safe, the more they're going to feel validated, the more they're going to feel really like deeply understood and seen as a human. That alone is going to go a long way. But when we get to that deeper level of understanding and like what's the meaning behind it?

45:28 And like when you think this way about yourself, like how do you feel? How do you show up? Then the solutions arise. You know, we try to jump to solutions too quick. Yes. Yeah. Like, I'm very instant gratification, so I get that. I mean, me too, yeah. Yeah, I try to find it immediately. So how does the conversation work shift when it's, say, the trans community? So for a trans man or a trans woman, how do your conversations and the thought process, do they bring some of the insecurities from their birth, you know, gender into their transgender life? Or how does the conversation change?

46:09 So I'll start by saying I'm not like the most experienced working with the trans community, but I do have some experience and training with it. And I think there's a lot of overlap in terms of, you know, body messages. But the main difference is like when your outsides don't match who you really feel like you are on the inside, that is a different level, right? This isn't just sort of like, oh, we're nitpicking. You know, this is like, There's a mismatch there. I think that that's important to keep in mind when someone's talking about, you know, having surgeries or getting on hormones to realize like this is going to bring more alignment to like their everyday life and that this is an enormous burden that they've been living with. So because I think that was something that came up earlier where like, how do we know if it's just like garden variety, occasional negative thought about your body versus, you know, this is actually like an issue that needs to be addressed. So I think, yeah, I think if you're trans, that tends to be more of an issue with the body dysmorphia. And also, I think just understanding like everyone's trans experience is going to look different.

47:17 Some people are going to want to have top surgery. Some people might not. Some people are going to want to have bottom surgery. Some are not. Some people are going to want to have facial changes that they're making, whether through surgery or other cosmetic things. I mean, it's the same thing when you look at it that way. It's like, let's just stop putting people into a box. Right. It's like we as women, we don't want to be put into a box. Men don't want to be put into a box. Trans people don't want to be put into a box either. Right. So I think like the more we can, again, stay curious, not objectify people, look at them as a whole person, look at their total experience and try to deeply understand, you know, I think the better off we're going to be.

47:58 Yeah, just a brief story on it. I've got a friend who was born female and transitioned into a male. And he said to me that his experiences of hating his body when he was a female, when he transitioned into a male, he just morphed into somebody with full body confidence. And he said that his experience was when he was female, the role of... a woman was to always be body conscious and self-conscious about their body and not confident around sex but when he transitioned yeah his confidence just went through the roof and he morphed into a really confident man.

48:43 Wow that is really fascinating because i feel like there's two there's two pieces there there's the piece of like his outsides match his insides finally so there's some relief probably with that but then also like oh i'm a man i'm not just judged by my appearance anymore that's what. He said that's exactly what. He said that's so crazy framed it wow shows how shows how layered this is it's so layered fortunately in in our. World in the world we speak speak about here on the podcast and stuff and in the audio erotica world there's a huge uptick in like body confidence audios of all different kinds whether it's curve appreciation or like disability and desire, like whatever it might be. It's really, so we talked earlier about like traditional porn and like the clamshell, you know, and so with audio erotica, that is completely stripped away. And, and so I'm curious, like, what are your thoughts on like erotica or like audio porn? As a body confidence tool, since it strips out that visual comparison. Love.

49:40 I'm a fan of audio erotica in general, and I frequently will recommend it to my female clients, especially who are maybe not as into like video stuff. And I also just love that like it kind of encourages creativity, you know, and I think creativity is so important for sex. And like audio erotica gives us that little hint, but then it sort of lets our own imagination like fill in the blanks and kind of run wild, which I think is really fun. And it's also cool. I know you're familiar with Quinn and other audio erotica platforms, but it's like the whole kind of immersion piece of it is like having you as the listener be the other party in the story. Yeah. I mean, you can listen to narratives, too, but I think there's something there, too. I hear from a lot of women in the communities who, you know, there are a couple, two creators that jump to mind right now are Peaches and Dr. Rapture are two creators on Quinn.

50:30 who are very like body positive audios. And so they talk about how much they love the squish of the tummy or, and so, so many women in the community say like they're drawn to creators like that because they, They find that their own confidence about their body has improved as a result of even experiencing that someone does more than just tolerate that, but they actually love it. So it's, I mean, we try to scream from the rooftops, right, guys? Like, listen to audio erotica. Do it, please, please. It will change your life. It will change your life. Really well. But I also think it's very, because it's obviously not visual and it's audio, if you still don't like curve appreciation audios, I think it's because you have a real, real issue with your own confidence and your own body confidence.

51:16 It's not necessarily that it's not inclusive. I've, you know, as I've gained a little bit of weight over the last year, I've listened to some of the curve appreciation, a couple of the curve appreciation audios, but I've still felt very self-conscious about because they're highlighting it and i don't want it highlighted i want it hidden to the carpet i think. Some of his identity smudge like when you were talking about you know at 280 you were just like i know who i am and i accept it it sounds like there was just sort of like an ownership of like this is who i am but it seems like and i think this is part of the hard thing about weight loss it's like well if i'm 100 pounds less than who am i or from 80 pounds less who am i and if i gain 20 more then who i think sometimes we're taught as women again it's like well here's the different categories you can fit into but it's like what if you're in between or what if there's no category you seem to fit into.

52:07 Yeah yeah I think my biggest way I was confident because I'd spent a lot of time in that body yeah and now I seem to fluctuate and I don't have time to settle it's constant but I feel like every week my body is changing. Yeah Menopause too. I mean, it's just really, I mean, I know we like, it's like beating a dead horse, but really like, I mean, Samad, you and I have talked about this too. Like it's, it literally, your body, you don't recognize your body anymore. Like the way that the weight redistributes, even if you're not overweight, it just, things move in your body that you're like, wait a minute, things have never been snug here. Like you don't recognize your body. It's so different. There's something about that. Like everyone's body changes too. I think that's important to address. Literally zero of us will stay in the same body our whole lives. Like all of our bodies will change in some way, but I think we're sort of set up to think it's supposed to stay the same. Nobody like really prepares us. And so it's like, I think learning how to roll with the punches with the body changes is like a whole skill set, to be honest, that we could I could keep learning that better for sure.

53:08 I never even thought of that. Like what you just said triggered me because like they talk about like as you're aging, you know, make sure you're exercising. And yes, you're you're exercising more and taking better care of your body for like bone health and for heart health and all that kind of stuff. But we see it as. oh my gosh, you're starting to look different than you used to, so hurry up and exercise and eat better so you can continue to look like you were 20. It's like, you're not going to look like you're 20 when you're 50. You're not. It doesn't matter how many push-ups I'm going to do, my leg will not return. It's not. It's such a thing that has been with us our entire lives and we're still not used to it. No. Body confidence has never, you know, it's always talked about or you visually see it or somebody else one of your friends if you're not going through it one of your friends is it's constant noise isn't it yeah confidence noise how do you you heather you said you kind of shut yourself off from that how how do you do.

54:05 That well i'll i shut myself off from a lot of the negative media messages as much as possible like i opt out of ads i pay extra to have like premium of all my streaming services so i don't have to like deal with the ads After a lot of it. I'm not a big social media person. I have professional accounts and I, I ruthlessly unfollow anything that doesn't feel good, but I definitely don't feel like I'm immune to the body changes thing. Like, I think that has been really tough as I'm navigating, you know, intestinal, like I've got, I think I have intestinal methanogen overgrowth. So I'm like, okay, I'm like bloated and there's like trapped gas. And I'm like belching. I'm like, this isn't, I'm like, I do not find this sexy. Yeah.

54:46 It does not feel sexy. I do not feel sexy. You need a Belch appreciation. I was going to say, we could find you an audio. Oh my goodness. We probably could. Probably. There's like a fetish for everything, but looking at you, Doc. I know. So like there's, you know, so it's like there's some of that stuff where I'm like, OK. And so it does affect like how I feel about myself or when I get headaches because it's harder for me to spend time outside because I'm so sensitive to, you know, all these like mast cell triggers. So like I have to do my own work. The work, I'm sure you guys know, the work is never over, y'all. Sometimes you can be like, I've been working, I've worked on so many things. I've healed so many things. Why do I get to graduate when you die? Sorry.

55:27 Keep going. How much navel gazing can I possibly do? That's what like, like life is going to keep handing us stuff that we haven't figured out yet. And that's good. Like that is how we grow. So, you know, I have to believe that like, I've been handed some of these health challenges for a reason and, And hopefully I'll be able to help more people as a result of that. It's not easy, but it is a reminder. It's like my body will keep changing, you know, and I've been trying to figure out hormones with perimenopause as well. And it's, and then my friends are all going through it, but then everyone, you have to stop comparing there too. Cause like everyone's body is going to respond differently. So it's like, whew. So like what Smudge was saying earlier about like, you know, she, like when she listens to like, Body positive audios. I mean, it sounds like I don't know which audios you listen to so much because I've never found any that like focus on it that much. I listen to the more subtle ones, I guess. But for when she was saying like it's it doesn't make her feel better. She said, is that like a me thing? Is it too deep, deep of a me thing? So I think that's worth touching on is I know you use internal family systems in your work without getting too much in the weeds in case people would find that helpful. Can you give like a quick description of what it is and how that helps someone understand why a part of them shuts down during intimacy?

56:42 Yeah. So basically we have our self-energy and we have our parts. So our self-energy is what we want leading our life as much as possible. And that's sort of this infinite essence of who we really are on a deep level. And it is calm and it's confident and it has clarity and it's bringing the creativity, all the C-words together. And then we have our parts and we have protector parts that are based. You can think of them as like defense mechanisms or protective mechanisms. And then some of the parts are exiled parts. And those are the ones that have been deemed unacceptable in some way. So often our exiled parts are, you know, not good enough. I feel like a failure. I'm unlovable. Even like I feel helpless and vulnerable and unsafe. So all of those parts are kind of shoved into the dark basement corner of our psyche and And then the protectors kind of try to keep them there and prevent those painful, uncomfortable, shameful feelings from coming out. But when we understand how our protectors are trying to protect us, why they're trying to protect us, when we can actually talk to our protectors and build a relationship with them from a place of our self-energy, the protectors start to feel more safe too.

57:52 Body image, hating on your body is definitely a protector. So if we can understand like, hmm, what is this trying to do for me? And it could be something like this is trying to help me belong. This is trying to help me gain acceptance. This is trying to help motivate me to look the way society tells me to look so that I do fit in and I do have connection. We can see that there's a positive intention there. And that's an important thing to know, too, is that like all of our parts have positive intentions, but they might be kind of stuck in like antiquated ways of executing on that. And so we can kind of bring them up to speed. We can help them get present. We can help them shift if they want to. We don't force anything in IFS. It's much more about like holding space, listening to the wisdom of the parts and supporting them in the shifts that they want to make.

58:42 That sounds like a lot of therapy sessions there. It could be. Some of the progress is really quick, but some of it is, you know, ongoing. Yeah. And there's, there's great, like, I mean, I know like there's great books out there. You don't have to like go into therapy forever, but I mean, therapist is great, but it's just really, I've found it very interesting to just identify those different parts of me and like, oh, I see why I do that. And, and I think it absolutely applies directly to body confidence in the bedroom because it's so much you're bringing because all your parts are coming with you into that room. You know so uh leave your labia behind yeah. It's it's an emotional orgy. It's so it's like that's why i have a job you know yeah.

59:26 Yeah Would you say you see more couples than you do single people? Yes, it's interesting. I have a project coming up that's going to be more focused on single people. And so I'm wondering if it'll become more 50-50. But right now I'm focusing more on people who are in committed relationships. A lot of times I see them together as a couple, but a lot of times I will see them one-on-one still, even if they're in a committed relationship, because they want to work on their own parts. They want to work on their own performance, anxiety, erectile dysfunction, low libido, communication skills when it comes to sex. identity you know sometimes people will hire me because they're like you know I have a kink or a fetish and I haven't told my partner but I really want to be transparent but I'm working through some shame around it and I need some support with that you know so yeah so it's probably like 50-50 in terms of like individual versus couple sessions but right now mostly people in relationships I wouldn't.

1:00:21 Have thought to go into a sex therapist if I was you know as being single I just had that assumption rightly or wrongly that you know sex therapists are for couples because yeah. No no because sometimes it's just like if you realize you have a hang-up around sex whether it's body image or whether it's like you know I think I'm into weird stuff or I think I'm too vanilla or you know I haven't explored my bisexuality and I just want some support in doing that it could there's so many. Options see I made an assumption and I made an ass of just me. Of just me just me not you me No. But Smudgy, I'm kind of with you. I don't think I ever thought about that either. Especially like you look at movies or in social media, whenever they're talking about anything sex related, a therapy, it's always with a couple.

1:01:08 You know, they never just have someone by themselves. That's a great point. You know? Yes. See, I wasn't just being stupid. No. It's a very, very clever question. I'm glad you guys asked that. It never occurred to me that people didn't realize that we would work with individuals. So thank you for bringing it up. Yeah. My brain just never thought about that. But like, obviously, obviously, now that you've talked about it, it makes perfect sense, you know? So you ready for a few rapid fire questions? Let's go. Let's go. All right. All right. Worst body confidence advice you've ever heard someone get? I mean. I probably just unsubscribe from that immediately. Honestly, it's taking me back to The Biggest Loser. And I know they just had that documentary. But I think just like kind of like I think it's being motivated by a place of shame or not being acceptable. Like you should you should work out. You should lose weight. You should change this or this because you're not OK the way you are. Yes. Yeah.

1:02:04 Yeah. Fucking hate that show. Sorry. Also, so many of the people have terrible health problems after they leave that show because horrible. I can't. I admittedly loved it when it was on. Me too. Me too. Loved it. Oh, I fed into all of the media about it. Who was that woman on it? Oh, fuck. Julian Michaels. I was a fan of her. What an absolute cunt she is. She was like the She was a big. Deal too, like early 2000s. I remember I was like, she's so cool. I will say the one thing I took away from her that I liked, because I agree with you guys, but the one thing that has always stuck in my mind, like if I'm exercising and stuff, and I feel like I want to like stop the exercise, is that your legs aren't giving out, your mind is. And so that's always helped me with like, OK, I'm just I'm talking myself out. I'm telling myself all sorts of stuff. So shout out to you for that one line.

1:02:57 I think I don't think that was a unique line for her. I think she heard it from somewhere else. And I think a lot of people have said that. I just just didn't like her. I think she's an absolute. Clearly, you have a very strong opinion. I do. Her and the fucking Janice Dickerson. Oh, from America's Next Top Model? America's Next Top Model. What a body-shaming cunt. Fuck off. Her and Tyra. Absolutely, yeah. Just, no. Anyway. But, sorry. Fuck you, Janice Dickerson. Women not.... Defending how the reason that they are a size 0-0 was because they have never eaten anything other than lettuce leaf and they won't allow themselves to because they have blended and took.

1:03:43 On what society... that's an important thing that needs to get repaired too is like if that's how you've been responding to your body signals by ignoring them shoving them down forcing certain things that's a big part of repairing as. Well well and i remember i used to eat up america's next top model back in the day i loved that freaking show and i still remember janice dickinson going you're size six you're never going to be be like a normal model and i remember being like What? Yeah. The plus size was like an eight. Like a four. What? Yeah. Like a six was considered a plus size model. Oh, my God. That's so ridiculous. You see that in the early 2000s. You're like. And also, even the idea that plus size model is somehow lesser. Oh, my God.

1:04:25 Right? Why can't they just be a model? Model. Yeah. Right. It has to be a separate lesser category. It's just like when they say like, you know, like the World Cup, the Women's World Cup. I'm like. Oh, my God. I can't. I know. I know. You don't have to put like a female athlete. She's just an athlete. She's just an athlete. But these are women that we looked up to. I know. No wonder our brains are fucked. That's right. We're undoing it. Yes. Next question. All right. One thing you wish every partner understood about their partner's body confidence. It might be what I said earlier that like you can't fix it for them. You know, like you might think like your partner is literally a 10 out of 10.

1:05:08 Like you're so lucky you wound up with them and your partner just might not see it. You just can't. I think it's like we can't get codependent about it. Right. It's like it's their shit to fix. Right. Be nice. Give them compliments. Give reassurance. And then, you know, let the rest be their responsibility. Next one. One body part people are way more self-conscious about than they need to be. I actually would like to go with tummies here because that came up by your, with your listeners. And I do think it's an area that so many of us feel more self-conscious about, but I do actually think it's an area people find more attractive. And sometimes there can be sort of like people like this abundance or like even my college roommate, she's like, Oh, I'd much rather have a guy with a dad bod than like six pack, you know? And I thought that was so interesting or like, a woman's body might be seen as like very just like, Ooh, it's voluptuous. It's, you know, there's like this abundance. And I think flesh can be like a fleshy body can be perceived very sexually. But I also feel like there's a lot of things people are attracted to like tummies, but they, no one's saying it or very few people are saying it publicly. So we kind of don't know.

1:06:22 And I think that that's an area where it needs to be said more publicly. I think more people need to be like, I'm into this. Yeah. God, genuinely, I could talk about this for hours. Oh my God, me too. You'd have to charge me your hourly rate, Heather. Well, actually, speaking of that, where can our listeners find you? You um yeah so my podcast is called sex for couples it's on all the podcast platforms as well as youtube um and my website is just my name heathershannon.co um and people can request a free consultation for coaching i have a couple digital courses on emotional intelligence and libido but yeah i love i love doing the coaching stuff.

1:07:06 Do you do like groups of three Just asking for a friend. Yeah. No one in mind. That'd be so fun. If people had a group, I would love to do that. And I also noticed when I was looking, when we were scouting you, that you have the, a quiz, um, why you're stuck in a sex rut. Yes. At the better bedroom.com is where you can find it. And it's pretty damn cool. Calls to action better than I am. Um, Yeah, so that one's good if you're in a committed relationship. Basically, I boiled it down to, like, there's five common patterns that I see in couples that kind of address the deeper, like, relational, psychological patterns that are at play that are kind of getting in the way of the sex life happening. So, yeah, the quiz will give people a good starting point of, like, what their number one issue is.

1:08:02 Nice. I may be single, but I'm going to do it. Do it! I'm going to pretend. I'm with Tom Ellis. There you go. Tom Ellis is my fictional partner. We would never be in a sex rut. He's pretty hot, yeah. He's British, of course he's hot. That guy would not leave the house. Yeah, us Americans are such suckers for the accent. We really are. It's ridiculous. We freaking love it. The Quiddicents will have all this in the show notes, so you'll be able to find all of Heather's information in the show notes to bring you to her wisdom. Because thank you so much for coming to join us in the Quiddicast videos. Thank you all for having me. You guys are really fun. I talk to you anytime. Oh, awesome. Or we might just invite you back then.

1:08:42 Great. Yeah. And good luck with everything. Good luck with your podcast. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Everything else. And I'm going to take the quiz straight after this. Me too. Amazing. I look forward to it. Awesome. Thank you so much, Heather. okay bye see ya oh she was lovely that was heather shannon sex therapist and she's amazing of sex for couples podcast i anybody else. Have like at least two or three epiphanies during that yes you've identified or i heard and i was like oh my god that's. So yes so yes many this is gonna be one of those like like i'm gonna listen to it again and again because it's so many gems she.

1:09:23 Was really informative really down to earth about everything yeah you know i mean like really grounded about it and everything and i i absolutely love talking to her it was. So cool to just have her like kind of get into the conversation of like her own issues with body confidence and stuff it's like no one's immune and um and hopefully clitizens you have some you know really good takeaways that can help you And thank you for submitting your body confidence struggles because that was super helpful to just help frame the conversation. So because as we say, we want this podcast to be a conversation between all of us. So we appreciate you contributing. So thanks, Clitizens, for listening to another episode of QuinnCast. We appreciate you so much. If you enjoyed this episode, and I know you did. Please rate us, comment. Those things help us reach so many more people and get this conversation into many more ears, which the more people who can hear about body confidence, I think, the better all around. So we'll be back with you with another episode shortly. But for now, this has been Kazza. Your voice matters.

1:10:20 This has been Jules. Go put those lips to good use. And this has been Smudge. Keep wanking.